Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hi,

So i just picked up another thrift store violin that caught my interest. 

It has many old repairs and looks quite old to me. There is a label inside located on the side which states "Carl Johan Broberg" along with "Gotheborg" as well as some other writing i cannot make out, perhaps someone here can help me? I was able to find the following information about the maker by googling in an old book, available here

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1247661/FULLTEXT01.pdf 

Translated from Swedish it says: 

"BROBERG, CARL JOHAN, violin maker, Gothenburg. Received in 1769 the commercial college's permission to make all kinds of violins and others
musical instruments. Where he was taught is still uncertain. The violin maker Jacob Heilman in Engelholm had an apprentice Carl in 1759-1765, and in 1766 and 1768 Heilman's brother-in-law, Jöran Mohte, had a journeyman; the year in between, 1767, the journeyman at Mothe is called Carl.

It is admittedly only a guess, but not impossible, rather quite likely that this journeyman Carl and journeyman Broberg are the same person, and that in 1769 he settled in Gothenburg as a violin maker. According to the »Relation on Gothenburg City Fabrikers Permit and production for the years 1771-1793» had Broberg, except for some repairs of instruments and manufacture of strings, completed 121 violins 61 bass violins — probably cello — 2 large bass violins, 2 violas, 36 zithers, 12 hops and 30 pcs. children's violins. He worked alone."

There is also a pencilled note that says "Reparerad av (Repaired by) J E(?) Hansson Uddevalla, 1933", along with another year that i cannot make out. 

What I'm wondering is basically if this really is an old 18th century handmade violin? How does the quality look to you guys? Any idea of a potential value of something like this? Please see the last images for pictures of the corner blocks and labels.

The soundpost has fallen so i've not been able to play it yet but it seems to have been set up quite well with well fitted pegs. 

Please let me know if you need any other pictures. 

Thanks so much for your help! 

 

 

DSCF0354.jpg

DSCF0356.jpg

DSCF0357.jpg

DSCF0358.jpg

DSCF0359.jpg

DSCF0360.jpg

DSCF0363.jpg

DSCF0364.jpg

DSCF0365.jpg

DSCF0366.jpg

DSCF0368.jpg

DSCF0369.jpg

IMG_20230928_113343.jpg

IMG_20230928_113415.jpg

IMG_20230928_114702.jpg

Posted

Nilsson, in his 1988 book on Swedish violins “Svensk Fiolbyggar Konst” gives biographical data on Broberg, e.g. he made and Hallmarked 181 violins, 2 violas and 32 large and small basses, he couldn’t find an example to illustrate though. The body of yours has a slightly old Saxon feel to it, although several of the other old Swedish makers do too, and the scroll/neck looks more recent. To find out if it (the body) is genuine, you will have no alternative but trying to find a second one to compare it with

Posted (edited)

The year seems to read something like Gotheborg 18.., not 1700s, and the inside work nothing like that old but made rather recently, probably renewed by the repairer who would have put this label into a Vogtlandish mid 1800s violin with a new neck applied.

I wouldn't be even sure that all the multiple parts being glued together were from the same instrument from the beginning.:huh:

Edited by Blank face
missing content added
Posted
On 9/28/2023 at 1:05 PM, Blank face said:

The year seems to read something like Gotheborg 18.., not 1700s, and the inside work nothing like that old but made rather recently, probably renewed by the repairer who would have put this label into a Vogtlandish mid 1800s violin with a new neck applied.

I wouldn't be even sure that all the multiple parts being glued together were from the same instrument from the beginning.:huh:

It seems he was active until early 1800's according to some sources, so could absolutely be early 19th century. 

Another thing to note is that the violin seems rather large to me, the lob is about 370mm. Would this technically classify it as a viola? 

The back seam is coming apart along one edge, is it worth reparing the instrument professionally or should I just leave it? 

 

Posted
17 minutes ago, NewbieCellist said:

It seems he was active until early 1800's according to some sources, so could absolutely be early 19th century. 

Another thing to note is that the violin seems rather large to me, the lob is about 370mm. Would this technically classify it as a viola? 

The back seam is coming apart along one edge, is it worth reparing the instrument professionally or should I just leave it? 

 

The Nilsson book I cited above states that he hallmarked his violins between 1771 and 1793 and died in 1802. I can’t help admitting that I have the impression that it is Saxon, and a little later (and the scroll even later) that that. It would seem that it needs a little more attention than just one back edge

  • 1 year later...
Posted

What a find! 

The violin is legit though some serious alterations have been made to it. The neck/scroll is not original and I suspect it's been revarnished. Pics from phones can be deceiving. They predominantly used 2 kinds of varnish during the early period here, first kind is a thin and delicate yellow spirit varnish, the 2cd is a thick opaque black(some times deep, deep, chestnut) colour. 

I have seen 3 of his violins in 25 years living in Göteborg. So it is a rare find. 

 

received_3787369004718840.jpeg

received_3918437714872229.jpeg

FB_IMG_1625135001580.jpg

Posted
13 hours ago, Groda said:

What a find! 

The violin is legit though some serious alterations have been made to it. The neck/scroll is not original and I suspect it's been revarnished. Pics from phones can be deceiving. They predominantly used 2 kinds of varnish during the early period here, first kind is a thin and delicate yellow spirit varnish, the 2cd is a thick opaque black(some times deep, deep, chestnut) colour. 

I have seen 3 of his violins in 25 years living in Göteborg. So it is a rare find. 

 

received_3787369004718840.jpeg

received_3918437714872229.jpeg

FB_IMG_1625135001580.jpg

Thank you very much for sharing this nice violin.

OTOH I cannot find many similarities to the original posted instrument, and it would not answer the question about the not very reliable date at the label. It's missing also the brand beneath the button.

I'm supposing that you are sure your's is really made by Broberg? As it was written by Jacob Saunders in the post above, it has also a lot in common with some violins from the Markneukirchen region from the early 19th century, especially the ff and scroll. Maybe there's a connection?

Posted
7 hours ago, Blank face said:

Thank you very much for sharing this nice violin.

OTOH I cannot find many similarities to the original posted instrument, and it would not answer the question about the not very reliable date at the label. It's missing also the brand beneath the button.

I'm supposing that you are sure your's is really made by Broberg? As it was written by Jacob Saunders in the post above, it has also a lot in common with some violins from the Markneukirchen region from the early 19th century, especially the ff and scroll. Maybe there's a connection?

I have forgotten what its like to post on this site. 

Broberg was trained in Ängelholm, a town in the south of Sweden. Möthe who was one of his 2 teachers was a German immigrant, hence the connection. 

And as stated above the scroll is not original and it has been revarnished. 

It's made from local materials, it probably had a cruddy brown varnish on it that was scrapped off. That is what has happened to the edge work in the first one posted and there are remains of the original varnish. 

One of the other 3 I have seen was stamped, the others not. 

It was also found in Göteborg.

As for it being uninteresting dross, they were being made at a time of great economic uncertainty in Sweden. Hence, his instruments went out cheap and quick. 1/3rd of the population would immigrate to the States and Canada in the coming years.

Some people, myself being one of them, are interested in the socioeconomic importance of what is essentially a historical artifact.

It's not something I would sit and discuss ground treatment, f hole fluting, or any of the other bullshit that goes in endless circles with "classical, golden period, blah-blah".

It's important because most of his work has been destroyed and for what it mirrors in Swedish society at the time. 

Posted
10 hours ago, Groda said:

I

As for it being uninteresting dross, they were being made at a time of great economic uncertainty in Sweden. Hence, his instruments went out cheap and quick. 1/3rd of the population would immigrate to the States and Canada in the coming years.

Some people, myself being one of them, are interested in the socioeconomic importance of what is essentially a historical artifact.

It's not something I would sit and discuss ground treatment, f hole fluting, or any of the other bullshit that goes in endless circles with "classical, golden period, blah-blah".

Groda,

I share your thoughts wholeheartedly.

I feel righteous indignation when some violin or guitar snob declares an instrument to be "unimportant and not worth restoring" because it doesn't have a certain pedigree.

I believe that most man-made objects only derive importance from how they routinely affect - positively or negatively - living things. 

I believe that a scratched and dented, amatueur or factory-made instrument that was used to entertain, console, and teach thousands of ordinary, average people over several generations is a lot more important than a "priceless" Stradivari/Stainer/Ramirez/Martin/Gibson/Fender that hasn't felt sunlight, wind, tears, and beer since it was hung up in a museum or wealthy collector's home.

Groda, you and I, and other kindred spirits, will keep having affordable fun, rescuing and restoring to usefulness, "uninteresting dross" objects with rich and varied and interesting histories. And we won't have to spend a fortune on security and insurance.

" History isn't made by extraordinary people.  History is made by ordinary people doing ordinary things in extraordinary ways with extraordinary committment." Unknown

Sincerely,

Randy O'Malley; Ordinary, average guy

 

Posted
12 hours ago, Groda said:

I have forgotten what its like to post on this site.

Haha, I'm new and I didn't know what it was like to post here at all!

In all seriousness, this site seems to attract discerning artists and historians. It's informative posts like yours that add credibility and shape the culture here. I hope no offense was taken.

Posted
17 hours ago, Groda said:

I have forgotten what its like to post on this site. 

Broberg was trained in Ängelholm, a town in the south of Sweden. Möthe who was one of his 2 teachers was a German immigrant, hence the connection. 

And as stated above the scroll is not original and it has been revarnished. 

It's made from local materials, it probably had a cruddy brown varnish on it that was scrapped off. That is what has happened to the edge work in the first one posted and there are remains of the original varnish. 

One of the other 3 I have seen was stamped, the others not. 

It was also found in Göteborg.

As for it being uninteresting dross, they were being made at a time of great economic uncertainty in Sweden. Hence, his instruments went out cheap and quick. 1/3rd of the population would immigrate to the States and Canada in the coming years.

Some people, myself being one of them, are interested in the socioeconomic importance of what is essentially a historical artifact.

It's not something I would sit and discuss ground treatment, f hole fluting, or any of the other bullshit that goes in endless circles with "classical, golden period, blah-blah".

It's important because most of his work has been destroyed and for what it mirrors in Swedish society at the time. 

I didn’t want to upset you. All I was trying to say was that the OP violin, taking into account all the mentioned alterations, doesn’t seem to have the same building quality as the one you’re showing, neither in wood nor stylistically, and has as prove of origin only a rather (in my eyes) questionable label. As you wrote, to be sure about anything it would be necessary to have both side by side in real life for comparison.

Posted

Everyone has been civil here, I don't understand where the defensive reactions are coming from. It can get pretty petty and ugly on this forum, but so far in this topic it has not been that way at all. 

From a professional perspective, I believe it's fair to question these instruments. But nobody is saying they're trash, so let's try and keep our heads level. 

Posted

Groda is barking at his/her own reflection. No-one else said anything abut "uninteresting dross", rather some serious questions were asked about

1. are the two fiddles by the same maker (in my view probably not) and

2. did any part of either fiddle start its life in Markneukirchen? (They would share this with many/most violins from more obscure traditions outside of central Europe ...)

You're not prepared to engage with "ground treatment, f-hole fluting or any of the other bullshit" - but this is how you know whether two fiddles are made by the same maker or not. I think you might be more tolerant of people who do study these things - they are as relevant to the identification of Swedish fiddles as to the identification of Golden Period Strads.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...