Strad Poster colour accuracy.

[GerardM]

Hello everyone as the title says do the colour pictures represent an accurate representation of the varnish colour?  I have the Plowden, Titian and Willimotte posters. I’m going to be  copying the colours on off cuts of spruce and maple, and I did wonder if the pictures were a bit to orange/red. Having said that some of the violins I viewed in the museum in Cremona looked a similar colour. Although the lighting was subdued so once again not as accurate as viewing under natural daylight. Thank you in advance for any information, take care G

 

[Christian Pedersen]

The colors on Strad posters are approximate. There are quality photos on the Strad3d website of those instruments.

https://strad3d.org/

--Chris

[HoGo]

Unless the pics were calibrated and your screen is calibrated too, you will always see only aproximate colors.

[JacksonMaberry]

6 hours ago, HoGo said:

Unless the pics were calibrated and your screen is calibrated too, you will always see only aproximate colors.

Came in to say this, too many variables to limit for. It's a bummer. 

I'd recommend not worrying too much about the color. Have some fun with it and varnish your fiddles a color that you like, within the brown-orange-red spectrum (or not!). Doesn't affect the sound. 

[Mark Caudle]

I suspect that the tendency in violin photography to overemphasise the red effect of varnish has lead to many violins being varnished in a redder colour than the reality of the most admired old models.

[Brad Dorsey]

4 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

…the tendency in violin photography to overemphasise the red effect of varnish…

Do you think this is done intentionally?

[Michael Richwine]

48 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Do you think this is done intentionally?

I go back to the days of shooting furniture on sheet film in a 4x5 camera, and dealing with color separations and print proofs while producing furniture  catalogs. Digital cameras are a dream compared to those days, but my only experience with digital is with Nikon. I will say their default color balance seems to be toward the warm side, perhaps to favor flesh tones, but if you care you can adjust the color bias in any Nikon semi-pro or better camera to give you the results you want. Exposure is still critical; a couple of tenths of a stop can yield noticeable differences that are hard to adjust out in editing. Monitors these days seem to be pretty accurate; mine seem to work fine when I compare the product with the image, side by side, but viewing angle makes a difference. 

Printing used to be the bane of my existence. There are all kinds of standard controls for color in the printing industry, but getting wood to look "right" is still a challenge. So, IMHO, even if you have the image perfect in the camera, translating that to paper is only going to be approximate at best due to the limitations of inks and printing technology, and the fact that the least change in light changes the look of a violin a lot.

[Dr. Mark]

Mr. Bayon published a photo with his violin copy held up to the Strad poster of the original.  The color and shading appeared nearly identical, so under proper lighting you evidently can do worse than match one of these posters.

[Mark Caudle]

50 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Mr. Bayon published a photo with his violin copy held up to the Strad poster of the original.  The color and shading appeared nearly identical, so under proper lighting you evidently can do worse than match one of these posters.

I would like to see the Strad poster held up against the original instrument but even then the photo of the poster might not  necessarily show the colours that you would see by eye in the room.

[Violadamore]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:13 AM, GerardM said:

Hello everyone as the title says do the colour pictures represent an accurate representation of the varnish colour?

If you read through what everyone else has responded, you'll see that the answer is "No".  The best that can be done will differ from what you would see with normal color vision, and the instrument in hand.  IMHO, there are three underlying limitations that make all visual reproductions of violin finishes imperfect:

1)  The limits of the camera technology to record (encode) the colors accurately, 

2)  The limits of the printer or monitor technology to reproduce (decode) the colors accurately, and

3)  The impossibility of capturing directional reflection and transmission varnish effects (such as chatoyance) in a motionless photograph.

I realize that my descriptions above are technically vague, but I don't want to turn this thread into a nerd's tedious discussion of camera, printer, software, and monitor engineering, along with a deep dip into optics.  Just accept that all pictures are approximations, at some level.  If you're curious about the details, you can research them elsewhere online.

That said, I feel that the best available easily accessible reproductions of what classic Cremonese violins really look like (though still imperfect for the first two reasons above) are found in performance videos, rather than static photos.  When you can find them, 360 degree rotational photographs of violins are also very informative. 

 

 

[gowan]

I'm not surprised that it is impossible, as VdA describes.  Anyone who shops for clothes from printed catalogs or online knows that the colors shown can't be trusted.  If it were possible these retailers would do it to cut down on the problem of dealing with returns.  As for violin colors, as Viola says, which color do you want, the light under incandescent light, outdoors under an overcast sky, in sunlight, etc.  Myself I would aim for a finish with many qualities that I liked rather than try to match something from a two-dimensional picture.

[GerardM]

30 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

If you read through what everyone else has responded, you'll see that the answer is "No".  The best that can be done will differ from what you would see with normal color vision, and the instrument in hand.  IMHO, there are three underlying limitations that make all visual reproductions of violin finishes imperfect:

1)  The limits of the camera technology to record (encode) the colors accurately, 

2)  The limits of the printer or monitor technology to reproduce (decode) the colors accurately, and

3)  The impossibility of capturing directional reflection and transmission varnish effects (such as chatoyance) in a motionless photograph.

I realize that my descriptions above are technically vague, but I don't want to turn this thread into a nerd's tedious discussion of camera, printer, software, and monitor engineering, along with a deep dip into optics.  Just accept that all pictures are approximations, at some level.  If you're curious about the details, you can research them elsewhere online.

That said, I feel that the best available easily accessible reproductions of what classic Cremonese violins really look like (though still imperfect for the first two reasons above) are found in performance videos, rather than static photos.  When you can find them, 360 degree rotational photographs of violins are also very informative. 

 

Quite right Violadamore I don’t wish this to become a nerdy debate. I was thinking perhaps some here had handled the violins I’d mentioned and could possibly pass comment. As I’m not intent on antiquing ( way beyond my skill level ) it’s not essential to be a perfect colour match. As Jackson commented have fun with it mix to a colour that I like. Because the poster colours are a bit to orange/red for me so l will be leaning more towards the cooler side of the spectrum brown/red ish. 

[David Burgess]

Gerard, even if one has personally examined these instrument, what they see would still depend on the lighting conditions. Even daylight varies in color content, depending on such things as the time of day, lighting angle, and degree of cloud cover.

[Christopher Jacoby]

6 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Gerard, even if one has personally examined these instrument, what they see would still depend on the lighting conditions. Even daylight varies in color content, depending on such things as the time of day, lighting angle, and degree of cloud cover.

And whether the color is down in the wood or a floating layer on top! Oh the fuckery… 

[John Harte]

On 9/27/2023 at 11:13 PM, GerardM said:

Hello everyone as the title says do the colour pictures represent an accurate representation of the varnish colour?  I have the Plowden, Titian and Willimotte posters. I’m going to be  copying the colours on off cuts of spruce and maple, and I did wonder if the pictures were a bit to orange/red. Having said that some of the violins I viewed in the museum in Cremona looked a similar colour. Although the lighting was subdued so once again not as accurate as viewing under natural daylight. Thank you in advance for any information, take care G

 

Gerard, for all the reasons mentioned, poster images will struggle to provide a completely accurate representation of varnish colour.  At best they provide some sort of record of colour under a very specific set of viewing conditions.  The photos below are a simple illustration of what a relatively minor change in viewing angle can bring.

Accurately capturing detail including how varnish and wood visually interact, as seen when viewing an instrument, is virtually impossible.  Photos taken from a single point as opposed to how we process what we see in stereo does make a difference.  In the case of the three instruments you mention, the posters do not fully capture the appearance I recall seeing.

[MikeC]

This video has a pretty good view of one.  

 

 

[MikeC]