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the function of arching shape


reguz

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I started this discussion by asking. The complete text I found on the internet is

In a large generality, the arching is what makes your stringed instrument sound and function the way that it does. Without those curves (that is, with a flat top and back) your instrument wouldn't be able to stand up to the pressure of the strings and it wouldn't have the immense acoustic power to fill a concert hall.12 feb. 2012

Able to stand up to the pressure of the strings is WRONG. I have in allo my words on this forum only talked about STATIC condition. NO accoustic conditions. All starts with a shape and static conditions before they become dynamic and produce any sound. How and why one must have information of the shape. No information you can not say any precisision. And with a shape it is just to find out.

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16 minutes ago, reguz said:

I started this discussion by asking. The complete text I found on the internet is

In a large generality, the arching is what makes your stringed instrument sound and function the way that it does. Without those curves (that is, with a flat top and back) your instrument wouldn't be able to stand up to the pressure of the strings and it wouldn't have the immense acoustic power to fill a concert hall.12 feb. 2012

Able to stand up to the pressure of the strings is WRONG. I have in allo my words on this forum only talked about STATIC condition. NO accoustic conditions. All starts with a shape and static conditions before they become dynamic and produce any sound. How and why one must have information of the shape. No information you can not say any precisision. And with a shape it is just to find out.

I forgot to ask. Have we ever seen any pictures of the violins that you have made? Looking forward to seeing how you have put your theories and ideas to practical use.

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1 hour ago, reguz said:

I have in allo my words on this forum only talked about STATIC condition

Not to pile on, but it seems there's a problem - if the violin is free, the center of rotation is the center of mass.  If it's held, then there are, loosely speaking, fixed points roughly at the chin rest and where the hand contacts the neck.  One axis of rotation extends between the two fixed points, which for a right-handed player seems unlikely to pass through a normally-placed sound post.  Finally, if the geometry of your model assumes that these fixed points are co-linear with some point on the sound post, then (even disregarding the remaining axes) it seems unlikely that the model is sufficiently accurate to draw meaningful conclusions regarding stress distribution and tone.  Don't you agree?

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David. My interrest is orientated to what structure does become stress and whast structure not. thus is there structure that have function becoming something like a framework. We all know that a framework we find in all building structure. If not it may collapese or et least w do not know how we can expect it will behave.

When you write about loudness on a banjo I have not thought about it. But when I studied the scientist as you can read above I have found that they are wrong about how arching shape become stress. It is outward bendingon both belly and back and when dynamic as it bcome by the bowing action the volume changes and start breathing. The quality of that depend on the stiffness of structure that allow changing shape and thus volume. Gough has shown what he believe the breathing becomes produced. There might be some but not as it is by the bulding of boutb shapes.

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Not to pile on, but it seems there's a problem - if the violin is free, the center of rotation is the center of mass.  If it's held, then there are, loosely speaking, fixed points roughly at the chin rest and where the hand contacts the neck.  One axis of rotation extends between the two fixed points, which for a right-handed player seems unlikely to pass through a normally-placed sound post.  Finally, if the geometry of your model assumes that these fixed points are co-linear with some point on the sound post, then (even disregarding the remaining axes) it seems unlikely that the model is sufficiently accurate to draw meaningful conclusions regarding stress distribution and tone.  Don't you agree?

I can tell you I have used thiusend of hours on just what you describe. But as lomh as we do not know not holding as you decribe it is better studying by just holding on the end points of the sound post as it is illustrated in earlier text above. Beside that it is that you can not hold the instrument fixes in your hand and under your chin. When you study the figure of the internal framework, a octrahecrone, you will see tha just the corner points at the widest bout you fix yout chin rest. So structure is allowed rotating in relation. Don None do not like to discuss this but it is a fact that the geometry I found has an internal frame work. I studied the consequences of that framework and Don do not like that.

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1 hour ago, FiddleDoug said:

I forgot to ask. Have we ever seen any pictures of the violins that you have made? Looking forward to seeing how you have put your theories and ideas to practical use.

Yes Fiddle Dough you have seen pictures above holding a viola in a fork grip and plates in a master dissartation.

It is not possible doing both practical and theoretical research without instruments. 

web5247.pdf

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On 9/14/2023 at 3:23 AM, Evan Smith said:

So that could imply that shape alone is responsible for it's function, and it is not,  stress, stiffness, flexibility, weight  and graduation play the primary role in basic function

whereas it used to be the magic of Cremonese varnish.  O tempora!  O mores!

I found this little gem that could potentially be useful: https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/Absorption/Absorption.html

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Just now, Dr. Mark said:

Mr. Noon is a very sharp fellow and I'd take his concerns seriously.  Getting him to support your work would be of significant benefit to your arguments.

Not gonna happen.  We have gone around with this several times before, and I think it's bonkers.  I have taken advantage of the "ignore" function on Maestronet, so as not to waste more time on his posts.

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3 hours ago, reguz said:

have in allo [sic] my words on this forum only talked about STATIC condition. NO accoustic [sic] conditions.

Yes, that saves you rather nicely from having to spell "Fourier", "Laplace".  "Lagrange", or "Helmholtz" (among many other names), as well as from having to understand their methods.  :P  :lol:

IMHO, you can't get anywhere useful to predictive instrument design (the Holy Grail of luthiery), by limiting your analyses to the static case, because you can't address acoustics at all.  Unfortunately, acoustics is what, other than appearance, a violin is pretty much all about.  :)

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2 hours ago, reguz said:

I can tell you I have used thiusend of hours on just what you describe.

So what? Lots of people here have spent thousands of hours studying violins, and furthermore, experimenting with real violins. Your "I know better" protestations are holding water about as well as a leaky sieve.

2 hours ago, reguz said:

But as lomh as we do not know not holding as you decribe it is better studying by just holding on the end points of the sound post as it is illustrated in earlier text above.

The problem with using the ends of the soundpost as the stationary reference points, and going on to presume that your "internal framework" hypothesis has tonal benefits (as you have done), is that this is not the way real violins vibrate.

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37 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

So what? Lots of people here have spent thousands of hours studying violins, and furthermore, experimenting with real violins. Your "I know better" protestations are holding water about as well as a leaky sieve.

The problem with using the ends of the soundpost as the stationary reference points, and going on to presume that your "internal framework" hypothesis has tonal benefits (as you have done), is that this is not the way real violins vibrate.

David you totally misunderstand what I am talking about. I show that it is possible with simple geometry producing some very special structural conditions. Thus far I have not been able to give proof on that the internal framework in a positive way affect the function of the instrument as it comes to sound production. I do not understand that you write about this because I have not written any about this. But a fact is that the instrument by increasing string load behave as I have shown earlier in a diagram with + and - thus acting outward and inward by increasing string load. All is verified by the master dissertation. 

I am not "I know better" I simple show what I have found out. Don't you understand that?

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Yes, that saves you rather nicely from having to spell "Fourier", "Laplace".  "Lagrange", or "Helmholtz" (among many other names), as well as from having to understand their methods.  :P  :lol:

IMHO, you can't get anywhere useful to predictive instrument design (the Holy Grail of luthiery), by limiting your analyses to the static case, because you can't address acoustics at all.  Unfortunately, acoustics is what, other than appearance, a violin is pretty much all about.  :)

Yes Violadamore, nice told but it is still so that it is an advance when you know the complte shape of the structure and the X,Y and Z of any pixel.

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1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Not gonna happen.  We have gone around with this several times before, and I think it's bonkers.  I have taken advantage of the "ignore" function on Maestronet, so as not to waste more time on his posts.

Good enough for me Don. People live their own life and are happy with that. Just go on with that. With this I mean with the success you have in the making process with awards.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Mark said:

Mr. Noon is a very sharp fellow and I'd take his concerns seriously.  Getting him to support your work would be of significant benefit to your arguments.

Dr. Mark I do not need the support of any person. I do what I do and show the results. Thus far no one say you have made mistakes. If you believe there are mistakes you are welcome.

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59 minutes ago, reguz said:

Thus far I have not been able to give proof on that the internal framework in a positive way affect the function of the instrument as it comes to sound production. I do not understand that you write about this because I have not written any about this.

But you have, in prior threads!

And people have responded, in super-specific detail, to most of your other claims as well, in prior threads.

So the mystery is why you keep trying to run this stuff up the flagpole again and again, apparently failing to understand that repetition is not proof.

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15 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

My vestigial Ampullae of Lorenzini are telling me there's blood in the water........  :ph34r:  :lol:

 

From time to time, my focus shifts to countering BS, since BS can be hugely destructive to those who are not experienced enough in the trade to recognize it almost immediately. :)

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22 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

From time to time, my focus shifts to countering BS, since BS can be hugely destructive to those who are not experienced enough in the trade to recognize it almost immediately. :)

Yup.  My concerns are similar.  The amount of plausible sounding violin BS on the Internet is vast, and easy for newbs to find before they find their way here.   We certainly shouldn't be helping any of it to be spread from MN.   Except for Sawzall bridge cutting, of course.  :lol:     :)

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