the function of arching shape

[Evan Smith]

On 9/10/2023 at 3:15 AM, reguz said:

 the arching is what makes your stringed instrument sound and function the way that it does.              What would you say by reading these lines?

I would say, HI,,,,and

True and false

 

The arching can and does produce a certain sound according to the frequencies that it can produce. It is easy to look at a certain fiddle and vividly imagine what kind of sound that it will produce, because after a while certain shapes become generally associated with certain sounds. Those sounds change according to it's shape, stress, stiffness, flexibility, weight  and graduation. And some arches are just far superior to others.

"And function the way that it does"

So that could imply that shape alone is responsible for it's function, and it is not,  stress, stiffness, flexibility, weight  and graduation play the primary role in basic function.

Otherwise Marty would be just out of luck.

There are particular shapes that can optimize the realization of function, or lets say "Easier to produce a winner" with that shape. Yet there are millions with similar shapes and they do not function, they are a bit nasty, not at all what we are looking for.

When it comes to function, I think that graduation is king. You can only pull the sound out of what is there ,,,in regard to the terms of shape, it will be what it will be, and never anything else.

But I can make almost any violin function at a certain level. I mean the bowing will be good, a nice chirp at the start of all notes, with good solid connection, the fiddle speaks and the strings are balanced the strings stay strong as you move up the board, no bright brassy E strings, or major wolfs. Something a good player will find has a few interesting things about. You can accomplish that with any normally made violin if you know how. The arch will never stop that aspect of violinography from occurring,,,,

,,,,Unless you get these dirt haulers in there that grind all the wood out and make it real thin, and leave no salvage rights. It becomes tough when there is not enough wood left to work with, then you gotta warm up the glue pot..

The functioning of a violin is far removed from the "only" the shape, however, the correct shape with all the other parameters in place will be far superior in terms of sound and function.

The perfect shapes function can be destroyed by bad graduation, but any violin can be made to function at the basic level no matter what the arching looks like, as long as it starts in the channel and goes up over the center and then ,,,,,,,,

back down to the other side.

Break on through to the other side,,,

That's what I say about it.

Interesting to think about this.

 

[violins88]

Marty,

Thanks. My life has been one error message after another. I keep thinking about the bottle of gin in the cupboard.

[reguz]

10 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

I would say, HI,,,,and

True and false

 

The arching can and does produce a certain sound according to the frequencies that it can produce. It is easy to look at a certain fiddle and vividly imagine what kind of sound that it will produce, because after a while certain shapes become generally associated with certain sounds. Those sounds change according to it's shape, stress, stiffness, flexibility, weight  and graduation. And some arches are just far superior to others.

"And function the way that it does"

So that could imply that shape alone is responsible for it's function, and it is not,  stress, stiffness, flexibility, weight  and graduation play the primary role in basic function.

Otherwise Marty would be just out of luck.

There are particular shapes that can optimize the realization of function, or lets say "Easier to produce a winner" with that shape. Yet there are millions with similar shapes and they do not function, they are a bit nasty, not at all what we are looking for.

When it comes to function, I think that graduation is king. You can only pull the sound out of what is there ,,,in regard to the terms of shape, it will be what it will be, and never anything else.

But I can make almost any violin function at a certain level. I mean the bowing will be good, a nice chirp at the start of all notes, with good solid connection, the fiddle speaks and the strings are balanced the strings stay strong as you move up the board, no bright brassy E strings, or major wolfs. Something a good player will find has a few interesting things about. You can accomplish that with any normally made violin if you know how. The arch will never stop that aspect of violinography from occurring,,,,

,,,,Unless you get these dirt haulers in there that grind all the wood out and make it real thin, and leave no salvage rights. It becomes tough when there is not enough wood left to work with, then you gotta warm up the glue pot..

The functioning of a violin is far removed from the "only" the shape, however, the correct shape with all the other parameters in place will be far superior in terms of sound and function.

The perfect shapes function can be destroyed by bad graduation, but any violin can be made to function at the basic level no matter what the arching looks like, as long as it starts in the channel and goes up over the center and then ,,,,,,,,

back down to the other side.

Break on through to the other side,,,

That's what I say about it.

Interesting to think about this.

 

I agree on what you write. Shape and stress condition are responsible for the acoustic outcome. But as it is we always start by making the arching shape and there is much to consider. My very early research started by shaping arching with very special structural quality. I found that it was possible creating an arching shape in the upper and lower bout that always have equal arc shape from the outline into the center. The only difference is that the bout shapes have different width. There is only ONE geometric construction that make this special quality happen. You may read about what I did on the enclosed paper. It was just my curiosity that pushed my effort accomplishing something that may find out function of.

The dynamic behavior of this structure on the centerline is shown in another document. The importance of understanding that the sound post hold crucial quality was important to come to a verification on. For that reason I made that diagram. This is probally not the answer you expect but an explanation how I worked finding these special quality. Outward buckling of the bout shapes thus my work equal when we graduate the thicknesses using equal energy so the produce sound on equal quality.

Maestro 2.docx

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, reguz said:

I found that it was possible creating an arching shape in the upper and lower bout that always have equal arc shape from the outline into the center.

While it may be possible, I have never run across any violins considered to be exceptional sounding, which exhibited what you have described.

1 hour ago, reguz said:

There is only ONE geometric construction that make this special quality happen.

Some people get hung up on geometry. Personally, I think it's a much better idea to be inspired by instruments which sound and play well.

1 hour ago, reguz said:

It was just my curiosity that pushed my effort accomplishing something that may find out function of.

I think it's more than that. More like some old retired and semi-senile OCD guy who has no other hobbies or interests, so has nothing better to do than push his sketchy beliefs, and then argue about them, if anyone will still take the bait.

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I think it's more than that. More like some old retired and semi-senile OCD guy who has no other hobbies or interests, so has nothing better to do than push his sketchy beliefs, and then argue about them, if anyone will still take the bait.

Too many have done so.  See post #4; I warned y'all.

[Dennis J]

7 hours ago, reguz said:

II found that it was possible creating an arching shape in the upper and lower bout that always have equal arc shape from the outline into the center. The only difference is that the bout shapes have different width.

Maestro 2.docx 1.45 MB · 5 downloads

I'm not sure what you mean here. Using my geometry I've found that arching shapes at the widest cross sections of the upper and lower bouts tend to be almost circular arcs. That is the only practical shape possible. Typically the upper bout one has a much shorter radius of curvature and is about .5 mm lower in height above the plate edge level. The inflection point (at edge level) is set at about 16 mm from the plate edge for the lower bout and a little less for the upper. It would be possible to widen the arcs to terminate closer to the plate edge but I've found that leaves very little room for an edge scoop with a bit of depth.

I'm referring here to the last set of templates I've made for the top. The back ones are slightly lower in height with an even shallower curvature, so it is pretty hard to define what shape these arches might turn out to be especially with the lower bout. They are simply smooth curves between the top centre and inflection point near the plate's edge.

 

[Anders Buen]

12 hours ago, reguz said:

I agree on what you write. Shape and stress condition are responsible for the acoustic outcome.

No, not alone!

[reguz]

19 minutes ago, Anders Buen said:

Anders it would be nice if you could explaine in detail.

 

[reguz]

7 hours ago, Dennis J said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. Using my geometry I've found that arching shapes at the widest cross sections of the upper and lower bouts tend to be almost circular arcs. That is the only practical shape possible. Typically the upper bout one has a much shorter radius of curvature and is about .5 mm lower in height above the plate edge level. The inflection point (at edge level) is set at about 16 mm from the plate edge for the lower bout and a little less for the upper. It would be possible to widen the arcs to terminate closer to the plate edge but I've found that leaves very little room for an edge scoop with a bit of depth.

I'm referring here to the last set of templates I've made for the top. The back ones are slightly lower in height with an even shallower curvature, so it is pretty hard to define what shape these arches might turn out to be especially with the lower bout. They are simply smooth curves between the top centre and inflection point near the plate's edge.

 

Dear Dennis. Finding some geometry I had to hold it on simple condition thus radii and styraight lines. But of course on arching shape you may have any curved shape. But it would be difficult making things understandable.

I very much like to see what you have accomplised. 

[Violadamore]

11 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Too many have done so.  See post #4; I warned y'all.

Isn't it lovely that a thread that was devoid of useful content to begin with, can be redecorated into another MN masterpiece along the way? 

On 9/13/2023 at 3:19 PM, David Burgess said:

Uh, no on both counts. You seem to have become blinded to other and better explanations, from having forever placed blind trust in your own, which appear to be at about an "introduction to physics 101" level.

How dare you insult introductory physics courses like that!       

[reguz]

Hi Violadamore. You seem to be a nice person that do not agree on all "remarks" some special person make. It is a pity they do because they are graet violin makers and possibly do not allow other expressing what they have found out. It is sad that such person makes such big mistakes.

They should contribute by giving their opinion and express what they think may be good or wrong

.

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

How dare you insult introductory physics courses like that!       

I thought the one I took, taught by Dr. Arai was pretty good.

[Violadamore]

On 9/10/2023 at 8:21 AM, Don Noon said:

I would say it's bait for letting you expound upon your theories... again.

[By popular demand.    ]  Yup.  He's a master at it. 

[Anders Buen]

8 hours ago, reguz said:

Anders it would be nice if you could explaine in detail.

I feel no need to. If you go to the textbooks in acoustics can you find support for your ideas? Will you find anything on "Shape and stress condition are responsible for the acoustic outcome"?

[Dr. Mark]

So...if we take an imaginary cut through the belly with a horizontal plane, i.e. an in-plane vector is perpendicular to the averaged string load, then we'd have a contour through the belly, bass-bar, and sound post.  In equilibrium the average vertical force normal to this surface, obtained by integrating the vertical components of the the stress tensor over the entire surface, is equal to the total vertical component of the string load....lol I was thinking of using this approach to reach a generalization about the relative components in-plane and normal force components on the plate surface as a function of the plate angle to the horizontal i.e. local arching, but I don't think it's going to be useful.  And the finite element modelling I've found seems to only care about dynamic surface displacements relative to equilibrium.  I'd like to see the equilibrium stress distribution of a loaded versus an unloaded violin, as a function of arch height and may some shape parameters...

[reguz]

3 hours ago, Anders Buen said:

I feel no need to. If you go to the textbooks in acoustics can you find support for your ideas? Will you find anything on "Shape and stress condition are responsible for the acoustic outcome"?

Dear Anders. On what I have written above is about structure and function in static conditions. Is there any about accoustic?

[David Burgess]

6 hours ago, reguz said:

Hi Violadamore. You seem to be a nice person that do not agree on all "remarks" some special person make. It is a pity they do because they are graet violin makers and possibly do not allow other expressing what they have found out. It is sad that such person makes such big mistakes.

They should contribute by giving their opinion and express what they think may be good or wrong

If that should be in any way the slightest reference to me, I have no problem with people expressing their opinions or beliefs. What I have a problem with is trying to seduce people into endless and circular arguments, in which you seem to remain stuck, and never learn anything.

One thing I have learned is the futility and time-waste of interacting with "conflict addicts", unless they have a desire to learn and improve.

Sorry if I've been a bit direct and harsh. Based on my background in 20+ years of volunteer work with people with PTSD, perhaps what you are really seeking is a cuddles and kisses, but aren't aware of this yet, or don't know how to go about it?

[violins88]

David,  well said.

[Bob K]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:14 PM, martin swan said:

Sorry I didn't manage it, I just fell asleep in the garden for 2 hours and now I've forgotten the question.

Did you miss the fire engines in the HIgh Street, then?

 

[violins88]

I love it when humor overtakes a thread that is headed no where.

In the book “Into the Wild,” the author is walking in the desert in Wyoming. He meets a very bedraggled woman. He says “What are you doing here?” She says “Well everyone has to be somewhere.” 

It was funny at the time.

 

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Bob K said:

Did you miss the fire engines in the HIgh Street, then?

Today? I was in London, damn missed all the fun ...

[Bob K]

31 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Today? I was in London, damn missed all the fun ...

No, it was Sunday - the same day you posted.

 

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

One thing I have learned is the futility and time-waste of interacting with "conflict addicts"

I find that the "ignore" function on MN helps a lot.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Bob K said:

No, it was Sunday - the same day you posted.

 

I genuinely was asleep in the garden, in spite of heavy and unruly bellringing practice at the cathedral!

Don't tell me you also live in Wells ...

[tigermaple]

My response would be . . . "Well, if that statement is true and you're going to stand by it, then explain to me why I have heard a number of "cigar box fiddles" that sound as good or better than a highly arched Hopf or Stainer copy old market fiddles?"