Lower rib notch on english early 19th C. violins ?

[HH1978]

Hello,

I wonder if it is common to find a lower rib notch on old english violins, like one sees on Mittenwald violins. I made a search but could only find an example on the forum, a c1780 violin from Sheffield, which picture was provided by Fiddlecollector.

Thanks!

[jacobsaunders]

40 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

Hello,

I wonder if it is common to find a lower rib notch on old english violins, like one sees on Mittenwald violins. I made a search but could only find an example on the forum, a c1780 violin from Sheffield, which picture was provided by Fiddlecollector.

Thanks!

I would warn against considering the notch marking the centreline an exclusively Mittenwald feature, since you may find it on most South German and Austrian 18^th C violins, whereas the Vogtländische makers tended to make a centring notch on the back plate (sorry for not answering your question)

[HH1978]

Thanks Jacob!

I'm indeed looking at a specific violin which was most probably made in London around 1810, but it's always great to have good information, even if it doesn't directly answer the question

BTW, would your answer to the question imply that someone like BS Fendt the elder would likely be acquainted with notches, since he was born in Fussen, or does the fact that he made his apprenticeship in Paris negate this possibility?

The violin is from Charles Harris (most likely the father), but apparently Fendt worked for him at some point so I wonder if this could be his influence.

 

[jacobsaunders]

31 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

Thanks Jacob!

I'm indeed looking at a specific violin which was most probably made in London around 1810, but it's always great to have good information, even if it doesn't directly answer the question

BTW, would your answer to the question imply that someone like BS Fendt the elder would likely be acquainted with notches, since he was born in Fussen, or does the fact that he made his apprenticeship in Paris negate this possibility?

The violin is from Charles Harris (most likely the father), but apparently Fendt worked for him at some point so I wonder if this could be his influence.

 

I’m afraid you will have to ask someone with good expertise on 18^th C English violins, since this is outside my area of competence. I have been surprised on visits to England how similar they can be to various “German” schools though

[HH1978]

I understand, and I truly believe it's the mark of a great expert to know the limits of his expertise 

Fellow member Matesic, who owns a very similar violin and I have been discussing our instruments with Andrew Fairfax and Benjamin Hebbert, and I can't stress enough how kind they are to share their knowledge, and their time. I already learnt much more than I thought it was possible on my instrument and the life of its maker, and I have the feeling there's more to come. I could ask them about the notch,  but since it's a general question about english violins of the era, and probably not of important significance, given neither of them commented about it when identifying the violin, I thought I should ask here first to avoid abusing their time even more.

 

[jacobsaunders]

22 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

I thought I should ask here first to avoid abusing their time even more.

 

No, go and waste his time some more

[KeiranC]

3 hours ago, HH1978 said:

I understand, and I truly believe it's the mark of a great expert to know the limits of his expertise 

Fellow member Matesic, who owns a very similar violin and I have been discussing our instruments with Andrew Fairfax and Benjamin Hebbert, and I can't stress enough how kind they are to share their knowledge, and their time. I already learnt much more than I thought it was possible on my instrument and the life of its maker, and I have the feeling there's more to come. I could ask them about the notch,  but since it's a general question about english violins of the era, and probably not of important significance, given neither of them commented about it when identifying the violin, I thought I should ask here first to avoid abusing their time even more.

 

I’d be curious to hear what the say about the notches, too!  My wife’s violin is late 18th century anon English (according to Andrew Dipper) and it has a notch as well:

 

 

[Blank face]

A notch in the lower rib on it's own doesn't tell much. It can be a hint that a certain construction method was used, pointing to a particular school.

Seeing such a notch I would look wether the linings are morticed into corner blocks which are longer in the outer rib bouts, in the best case one should see the instrument opened to tell if the tips of the linings are pointed and deeply inserted into the blocks. This could mean that the maker was part of the South German/Austrian school, maybe from Mittenwald, Vienna, Vils or even Prague, Budapest or other places in this region.

If this is the case one would need to see other features to tell if the violin in question was an import from one of this places and just sold by the person or shop putting the label into it.

For example, seeing the lower rib pictured above with inserted saddle and the particular varnish I would suspect at first sight that it's a 19th century Mittenwald and look for other features confirming this. But obviously it was attributed otherwise.

[fiddlecollector]

The late 18th century William Smith  i used to own -notch and saddle

[HH1978]

Quote

’d be curious to hear what the say about the notches, too!  My wife’s violin is late 18th century anon English (according to Andrew Dipper) and it has a notch as well:

I'll ask and report what they say.

One tip about english violins : the makers (or at least some of them) seemed to have an habbit of signing the violin on a place that is not visible from the outside, either with ink or pencil. Mine has a pencil inscription under the table "Made by C. Harris London". Matesic's violin has a similar inscription, but we could only decipher "London".

I think it's because most of these makers worked for the London trade and the wholesaler would then put his own label in the usual place.

Of course if Andrew Dipper had the violin opened during the restoration, he would have seen the inscription if there was one, but if did not open it, an endoscope inspection could reveal something.

That said, I've seen your violin in the dedicated thread. I'm absolutely no expert, so I can't tell if it's English or south German as suggested, but Jacob and Blank Face are seldom wrong, so I think it would be wise to not rule out the Mittenwald origin.

 

[jacobsaunders]

As I said above, this isn’t a subject that I have expertise in, however one should always wonder to what extent something was imported and labelled up by a shopkeeper, as opposed to actually being made in England. I remember seeing John Johnstone’s that I would have sworn were labelled up Ficker for instance. The continental blockade was also an event that affected British violin making, since previously the cheap ones were also made in England. After the blockade was lifted, “cheap” English violins died out, since the British shopkeepers could import far more cheaply. One can also see this with 19^th C English bows, which kind of went of at a tangent, only to converge with continental bow again about the time of William Tubbs

[fiddlecollector]

22 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

That said, I've seen your violin in the dedicated thread. I'm absolutely no expert, so I can't tell if it's English or south German as suggested, but Jacob and Blank Face are seldom wrong, so I think it would be wise to not rule out the Mittenwald origin.

WHose instrument are you refering to in this quote?

[HH1978]

I was referring to KeiranC's violin, I did only see afterwards that you had replied at the same time ;)

 

[Blank face]

There are a lot of scenarios thinkable why there's such a notch. Many makers from the 18th were of a Füssen origin, or maybe they employed somebody from there, just as an example.

As I wrote, without seeing other features it's not much to tell.

[HH1978]

Here is Andrew Fairfax's reply about the notch :

"The notch in the lower rib is probably more of a German characteristic but it is seen on English instruments. It’s simply to mark the centre and line up the end pin, then in turn centre the neck along the length of the body. When the plates shrink over time the ribs are often ‘cut’, meaning they have a little wood removed to improve the overhang, so there will be a new joint and the notch is lost."

 

[jacobsaunders]

13 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

Here is Andrew Fairfax's reply about the notch :

"The notch in the lower rib is probably more of a German characteristic but it is seen on English instruments. It’s simply to mark the centre and line up the end pin, then in turn centre the neck along the length of the body. When the plates shrink over time the ribs are often ‘cut’, meaning they have a little wood removed to improve the overhang, so there will be a new joint and the notch is lost."

 

so, he doesn't know either

[Violadamore]

29 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

so, he doesn't know either

There's a considerable difference between perceiving Teutonic influence (both Füssen diaspora and Voghtlandish) on 18th. century English violins, and trying to identify individual makers involved.  The first seems to me blatantly obvious, while the second, as it often is, might be impossible. 

Considering the economic migration of German-speaking composers to Britain over that century, it strikes me as pedantic foolishness to insist on "extraordinary proof" that some Teutonic instrument makers must have done the same.  At the time, even the kings of Great Britain were Krauts.    

IMHO, given the evidence of the instruments themselves (some of which I've handled), the question of Germanic influence on British violinmaking is not rationally questionable. 

[Blank face]

12 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

At the time, even the kings of Great Britain were Krauts.    

They still are. On balance, the last German emperor (the “Hun”) was half British.

[Violadamore]

1 minute ago, Blank face said:

They still are. On balance, the last German emperor (the “Hun”) was half British.

Yup.  And Beethoven wrote variations of "Rule Brittania".  Does this mean you're conceding the point of cultural influence?  

[Blank face]

8 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Does this mean you're conceding the point of cultural influence?  

Never denied it. As long as we aren’t blamed for your last president.

[HH1978]

Quote

so, he doesn't know either

I asked specifically if the notch was usually seen on English instruments. I think the reply is pretty clear : it can't be considered as a typical english feature, like it is on south German violins, but it happens sometimes.

Quote

There's a considerable difference between perceiving Teutonic influence (both Füssen diaspora and Voghtlandish) on 18th. century English violins, and trying to identify individual makers involved.  The first seems to me blatantly obvious, while the second, as it often is, might be impossible. 

I didn't ask him for identification of the instrument (well, I did before, but that's not what the message I sent today was about).

There's still a possibility that BS Fendt the elder, who was of Füssen origin and was employed by Harris at some point, had an influence, but there's another Harris violin, certified by John Dilworth and dated c1790, that has a notch too. That seems too early for Fendt since he moved to London in 1798, unless the dating of that instrument is uncorrect.

[jacobsaunders]

32 minutes ago, HH1978 said:

I asked specifically if the notch was usually seen on English instruments. I think the reply is pretty clear : it can't be considered as a typical english feature, like it is on south German violins, but it happens sometimes.

 

This “notch” is a part of the whole building method, and not something one either did or didn’t do on a whim, therefore I would expect a vm who did so to have always done so, since in the 18^th C one learnt violin making as a 13 year old, and did the technical making part the same ones life long, even should stylistic niceties evolve

[Blank face]

I would think that the Fen(d)t trace is a red herring, because what I've seen from him at photos (unfortunately never personally) looked more like a build on the back, not a Füssen inside mould construction (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent a long time in France before moving to London and seems to have adapted construction methods from there.

[HH1978]

Just to be clear, Andrew didn't suggest that the notch was a Fendt trace. He only said that my violin was made by Harris Sr, but that he can't rule out the assistance of Samuel Gilkes, Harris Jr and maybe Fendt, if he was still working for Harris at the time, which is unclear. The Fendt influence on the notch was just my own question/extrapolation, and it is likely wrong.  

Quote

This “notch” is a part of the whole building method, and not something one either did or didn’t do on a whim, therefore I would expect a vm who did so to have always done so, since in the 18^th C one learnt violin making as a 13 year old, and did the technical making part the same ones life long, even should stylistic niceties evolve.

I understand that. I have only seen three violins by the specific maker, Charles Harris Sr. Two of them have the notch, and the third one is missing the original lower rib, so it's possible and logical to assume that he learned it this way and did it through his whole life. However, his son, who apprenticed with him first and then with John Hart, seems to have dropped the use.

 

 

 

[Wood Butcher]

As I read this is, all I can see is a forlorn desire for your violin to be ‘upgraded’ to a Fendt. Attempting to base this on a single feature, which was widely used in every country, throughout the history of violin making.