Best Pegs?

[hnryhouuu]

I know this is such a micro topic, but in terms of different types of wood, such as Ebony, Rosewood and Boxwood, which wood has what characteristics to sound and which is better in general (boxwood in my city costs way more)

and also, does a old German peg differ from possibly Indian or Chinese wood? Is it just a matter of seasoning? How do I test the pegs to determine if it is a good peg? My usual method is to gently flick it and hear if the sound is crisp.

lastly, is mechanical other still inferior to manual ones in terms of sound? I have heard mechanical pegs makes the sound of the violin sound more artificial and less natural, so is manual pegs still better?

Thank you in advance.

[baroquecello]

Other than weight, there is nothing from the pegs that influences the sound. And the weight is going to be so insignificant a factor that you can choose whichever peg you like the looks of. Most important thing is that the peg should fit perfectly. If it does, it will wear very slowly and will need no replacement for a lifetime at least. So the wood needs to be dry, in order for it not to change shape. Woods with a finer grain and higher hardness are more wear resistant and will turn a little more smoothly. Mechanical pegs do not negatively influence the sound.

[Dwight Brown]

Rosewood has self lubricating properties. There are a vast number of species referred to as rosewood.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood and it probably is the most likely to have the most CITES restrictions and customs problems.

Boxwood is my favorite for no good reason, just a personal preference.  It's probably the lightest and the most fragile.  Don't use cheap boxwood pegs as they are not worth the luthiers time to fit them.  With boxwood it's pretty hard to be sure of the real species of tree being used. It's supposed to be Buxus Sempervirens which has  been used for centuries for fittings and woodwind instruments.  It's probably the least stable of the choices, it's seldom that you will find ahistoric woodwind instrument that doesn't have a curve in it down it's length.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buxus_sempervirens You have to trust the peg maker.  I recommend Otto Tempel https://www.violins.ca/category/fittings/pegs/otto-tempel-pegs/ and Eric Meyer.  Eric uses Mountain Mahogany and it works out very well. http://www.meyerfittings.com

Ebony is a solid choice and is probably the hardest and longest wearing.  There are quite a lot of different species of African black wood and it's pretty hard to know just which one is involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony

There are a number of other wood species available that can work out well.

I have always wondered about using Lignum Vitae.  My father used to tell me about how the final propeller shaft berings of his ship in WWII were made of Lignum Vitae.  https://en.wikihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewoodpedia.org/wiki/Lignum_vitae

One consideration is if international travel is anticipated avoiding tropical hardwoods might be a good idea.

Sorry to carry on so, just found the subject interesting.

Best,

DLB

[Wood Butcher]

When you are reading the music, you're not paying attention to the pegs.

The best pegs are ones that work consistently well. Usually, that part, is down to the skill of the person who fitted them, and/or maintains them.

 

[hnryhouuu]

5 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

When you are reading the music, you're not paying attention to the pegs.

The best pegs are ones that work consistently well. Usually, that part, is down to the skill of the person who fitted them, and/or maintains them.

 

I’ve heard that under-seasoned wood will shrink and cause gaps. Is this significant or just very mild? 
I handed my violin to one of the best local luthiers in my city, Hong Kong. They definitely charged my a premium for the service as I have to get fittings and redrill the holes in the pegs as the original holes are misaligned and too large. Also they chose me a set of German rosewood pegs. They charged me 352 GPB. hoping the result is worth the money.

10 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

Rosewood has self lubricating properties. There are a vast number of species referred to as rosewood.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood and it probably is the most likely to have the most CITES restrictions and customs problems.

Thanks. Will rosewood cause slipping of the pegs due to it being too smooth? 
And also, rosewood is harder to find (restrictions and customs), is there any reason for that? Is it illegal to cut rosewood or it is a protected species? Is it more valuable than ebony or probably boxwood (boxwood in my area is more expensive nonetheless) 

[Violadamore]

12 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

I’ve heard that under-seasoned wood will shrink and cause gaps. Is this significant or just very mild? 
I handed my violin to one of the best local luthiers in my city, Hong Kong. They definitely charged my a premium for the service as I have to get fittings and redrill the holes in the pegs as the original holes are misaligned and too large. Also they chose me a set of German rosewood pegs. They charged me 352 GPB. hoping the result is worth the money.

Thanks. Will rosewood cause slipping of the pegs due to it being too smooth? 
And also, rosewood is harder to find (restrictions and customs), is there any reason for that? Is it illegal to cut rosewood or it is a protected species? Is it more valuable than ebony or probably boxwood (boxwood in my area is more expensive nonetheless) 

Cut to the chase, just install Wittner FineTune pegs, and stop worrying about it.  They don't slip, eliminate the need for fine tuners, and liberate you from the peg shaver forever. 

https://wittner-gmbh.de/wittner_finetune_peg_violin.html

https://wittner-gmbh.de/wittner_finetune_peg_service.html

They are available from many online shops and suppliers.  

[Spelman]

I have pernambuco pegs on one of my fiddles and noticed a difference in sound when they were installed. I think pernambuco is kind of an outlier wood (in my experience with my own instruments). I noticed no difference on another of my violins when I switched from ebony to boxwood pegs. Granted, a small sample size.

I would respectfully disagree with @Violadamore that Wittner pegs are as accurate as fine tuners (in my experience with my students' instruments).

[Mark Norfleet]

3 minutes ago, Spelman said:

I have pernambuco pegs on one of my fiddles and noticed a difference in sound when they were installed.

But was the difference due to the change in peg material, or the bridge, or something else, not being in EXACTLY the same place?  With one example and no real "control" it's impossible to know for sure.  In my experience differences in post and bridge position that cannot be seen can cause a noticeable change in the sound and playing characteristics of an instrument.  Especially one that is working well.

[Spelman]

18 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

But was the difference due to the change in peg material, or the bridge, or something else, not being in EXACTLY the same place?  With one example and no real "control" it's impossible to know for sure.  In my experience differences in post and bridge position that cannot be seen can cause a noticeable change in the sound and playing characteristics of an instrument.  Especially one that is working well.

True, it's a very limited sample and other variables may well have been introduced. I do believe that the soundpost was not adjusted and the bridge was returned to its original position. The work was done by an excellent luthier who has garnered much praise on this message board.

Admittedly, my post is purely anecdotal and non-scientific, but there's not a lot else that could be cited regarding the effect of any change of pegs.

[gowan]

Some people think that everything on or attached to the violin has an effect on the sound.  However, the effect of the material of the pegs must be very small.  Ebony fittings weigh significantly more than boxwood.  I know violists who avoid ebony fittings (except for the fingerboard of course).

[FiddleDoug]

4 minutes ago, gowan said:

Some people think that everything on or attached to the violin has an effect on the sound.  However, the effect of the material of the pegs must be very small.  Ebony fittings weigh significantly more than boxwood.  I know violists who avoid ebony fittings (except for the fingerboard of course).

Yes, and if that were the case, the violinist should not put on a chin rest, shoulder rest, or touch the violin in any way, because all of that could affect the sound.

[hnryhouuu]

7 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

Yes, and if that were the case, the violinist should not put on a chin rest, shoulder rest, or touch the violin in any way, because all of that could affect the sound.

Some violist see shoulder rest as an necessity rather than an optional item, as it provides superior grip and stability to the violinist  

[hnryhouuu]

But rather I think the debate lies on the section of wood on pegs, as if any resonant frequency or better acoustics could possibly be achieved 

[Wood Butcher]

16 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

I’ve heard that under-seasoned wood will shrink and cause gaps. Is this significant or just very mild? 
I handed my violin to one of the best local luthiers in my city, Hong Kong. They definitely charged my a premium for the service as I have to get fittings and redrill the holes in the pegs as the original holes are misaligned and too large. Also they chose me a set of German rosewood pegs. They charged me 352 GPB. hoping the result is worth the money.

Under seasoned wood will shrink, but all wood shrinks anyway. The worst thing to use are freshly turned peg blanks, for as they shrink, they can become oval quite fast. You will know when this happens, for the peg might feel tight for half a turn, then loose for half a turn.

The last time I had some pegs replaced, a selection was brought through, so I could choose my own. I noticed that all the sets were dated, and asked about this. They said they wouldn't use pegs which had been in their workshop for less than 3 years, because they change shape otherwise, after fitting.

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

Under seasoned wood will shrink, but all wood shrinks anyway. The worst thing to use are freshly turned peg blanks, for as they shrink, they can become oval quite fast. You will know when this happens, for the peg might feel tight for half a turn, then loose for half a turn.

This won't happen, unless the hole also becomes oval. An oval peg in a round hole won't become tight or loose every quarter turn, nor will a round peg in an oval hole

[stringcheese]

Something that we tell people is to do most of the thing with the pegs. Those metal things on the tailpiece are FINE tuners. There is a tendency for students with cheap steel core strings to do all the tuning at the tailpiece and to ignore the pegs. Some teachers are guilty of this as well. Pegs that are used regularly will work better and last longer than ones that are ignored.

[hnryhouuu]

8 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

I noticed that all the sets were dated, and asked about this. They said they wouldn't use pegs which had been in their workshop for less than 3 years, because they change shape otherwise, after fitting.

Oh snap. I should’ve asked them too about the year of the pegs being made. Now I’m quite worried and just hoping they use old good wood

[hnryhouuu]

8 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

The worst thing to use are freshly turned peg blanks, for as they shrink, they can become oval quite fast. You will know when this happens, for the peg might feel tight for half a turn, then loose for half a turn.

How should a good fitting look? Should there be a lot of long wood grains? As the one in my local luthier has that characteristic, and uncoloured at the moment 

[Mark Norfleet]

48 minutes ago, hnryhouuu said:

Oh snap. I should’ve asked them too about the year of the pegs being made. Now I’m quite worried and just hoping they use old good wood

I really don’t think when the pegs were made is something that you should be concerned about at all.  The likelihood that they will change after being fitted because they were not old enough is really really low.  I’ve made many pegs and installed them right away and have never had any problems at all with them changing shape or fitting poorly, even after decades.

[Mat Roop]

12 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

How should a good fitting look? Should there be a lot of long wood grains? As the one in my local luthier has that characteristic, and uncoloured at the moment 

Colored pegs? 

[Mat Roop]

On 8/4/2023 at 10:01 AM, Violadamore said:

Cut to the chase, just install Wittner FineTune pegs, and stop worrying about it.  They don't slip, eliminate the need for fine tuners, and liberate you from the peg shaver forever. 

https://wittner-gmbh.de/wittner_finetune_peg_violin.html

https://wittner-gmbh.de/wittner_finetune_peg_service.html

They are available from many online shops and suppliers.  

Was tempted many times, but never tried these because I enjoy peg shaving...now, I think I will. Do you still leave the classic e fine tuner on the tailpiece as well, or is the FT e peg fine enough?

Cheers... Mat 

[hnryhouuu]

9 minutes ago, Mat Roop said:

Colored pegs? 

It’s more like the fitting of the original peg hole and redrill new holes for new pegs

[Spelman]

1 hour ago, Mat Roop said:

Was tempted many times, but never tried these because I enjoy peg shaving...now, I think I will. Do you still leave the classic e fine tuner on the tailpiece as well, or is the FT e peg fine enough?

Cheers... Mat 

If I may butt in, IME, you'll need at least a fine tuner on the E. I've never found the Wittners to be as precise as fine tuners or friction pegs.

I find they have some mechanical slop and can be prone to slipping too sharp, then too flat, etc. You can mitigate that by going way flat at first when tuning, that seems to tighten them up somewhat.

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, Mat Roop said:

Was tempted many times, but never tried these because I enjoy peg shaving...now, I think I will. Do you still leave the classic e fine tuner on the tailpiece as well, or is the FT e peg fine enough?

Cheers... Mat 

Nope, the fine tuner isn't even necessary on the E. IMHO, not having a separate fine tuner removes a complication in the resonating string, a possible source of top scratches, and the possibility that the one differently stressed tailpiece corner might break off suddenly (that's happened to me, once, with a fancy fluted ebony tailpiece).  One less thing to somehow go wrong on stage is always good, since a violin's age is not measured in years, but in instants of panic.   

[Brad Dorsey]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

…the fine tuner isn't even necessary on the E….

That is my experience, also.