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What makes a Cremonese? Why theirs are considered better?


Wckoek

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On 7/12/2023 at 10:12 AM, Andreas Preuss said:

So why is Lorenzo Storioni not part of your research? Then you can extend according to your (pretty rough) definition of inside mould & Cremonese varnish the list of makers up to Enrico Ceruti. 
 

 

Sorry for the late reply, I am very busy for the past 2 weeks.

I didn't considered Strioni the "Old masters" of Cremona because he did not use classical oil varnish.

In the sense, he is in similar category as Landolfi

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Just now, Wckoek said:

Not disputable, inner mold and oil varnish is one of the two technical criteria of the so called "Cremonese" violin.

Storioni used to my knowledge an inner mould and I think some (not all) of his violins have a ceremonies type of varnish.

Besides that, there are violin makers completely far from Italy who build their instruments on a mould and had a Cremonese varnish. They are simply not ‘Cremonese’ because they didn’t work there. 

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29 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Storioni used to my knowledge an inner mould and I think some (not all) of his violins have a ceremonies type of varnish.

Besides that, there are violin makers completely far from Italy who build their instruments on a mould and had a Cremonese varnish. They are simply not ‘Cremonese’ because they didn’t work there. 

The second paragraph is the point of contention why I open this topic, re: GB Guadagnini.

Never heard of an oil finish example if you don't mean finish oil. Any examples?

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7 hours ago, Wckoek said:

Sorry for the late reply, I am very busy for the past 2 weeks.

I didn't considered Strioni the "Old masters" of Cremona because he did not use classical oil varnish.

In the sense, he is in similar category as Landolfi

You are hopelessly out of your depth.

Have you seen or handled any of these violins, or is your interest entirely informed by reading?

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19 minutes ago, martin swan said:

You are hopelessly out of your depth.

Have you seen or handled any of these violins, or is your interest entirely informed by reading?

I have seen 2 Lorenzo Storioni personally and a Carlo Landolphi.
They are of the bright, transparent type of finish, unlike the oil type.

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18 minutes ago, Wckoek said:

I have seen 2 Lorenzo Storioni personally and a Carlo Landolphi.
They are of the bright, transparent type of finish, unlike the oil type.

I guess you’re relying on some outdated books. Beside that the varnish we are seeing usually today at these instruments is the result of 3 centuries of heavy wear, much polishing, touch up and overcoating the actual state of research is something like that:
https://www.janroehrmann.de/violin-books-stradivari-varnish

So it’s not that easy to judge about varnish quality of old Italian instruments and tell what‘s „oil varnish“ or something else by simply looking at or reading about it.

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3 hours ago, Wckoek said:

I have seen 2 Lorenzo Storioni personally and a Carlo Landolphi.
They are of the bright, transparent type of finish, unlike the oil type.

There is no reliable way to visually distinguish between oil and spirit varnishes. Neither one always conforms to such stereotypes.

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On 7/24/2023 at 11:14 PM, David Burgess said:

There is no reliable way to visually distinguish between oil and spirit varnishes. Neither one always conforms to such stereotypes.

Ok, 3 weeks ago there was this violin I saw at a dealer in Shibuya, said to be of Carlo Castello 1760 of Genoa.
What would you said of this?

992729bc-f2dc-47bd-b807-55aabd9d8e24.jpg

7cb01159-2039-4b2b-becf-3eca3154cd71.jpg

73b8f6cd-1d89-4427-b4df-327f54d25dab.jpg

eb3fd0c8-c76b-4e6d-ba94-85254d5c49c4.jpg

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41 minutes ago, Wckoek said:

Ok, 3 weeks ago there was this violin I saw at a dealer in Shibuya, said to be of Carlo Castello 1760 of Genoa.
What would you said of this?

992729bc-f2dc-47bd-b807-55aabd9d8e24.jpg

7cb01159-2039-4b2b-becf-3eca3154cd71.jpg

73b8f6cd-1d89-4427-b4df-327f54d25dab.jpg

eb3fd0c8-c76b-4e6d-ba94-85254d5c49c4.jpg

I think David (quite rightly) has already told you that one can not distinguish between “oil varnish” and “spirit varnish” on an old violin, just by gawping at it. In fact, I have had reason to wonder if the late Strads weren’t some sort of Schellack/Sanderac spirit brew anyway, which kind of wrecks your theory

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On 7/24/2023 at 11:14 AM, David Burgess said:

There is no reliable way to visually distinguish between oil and spirit varnishes. Neither one always conforms to such stereotypes.

1 hour ago, Michael Darnton said:

This.

This may be true. However, stereotypes persist. Thick and/or soft matte varnishes are perceived as oil varnishes and thin and/or hard shiny varnishes are perceived as spirit varnishes. While neither one always conforms to such stereotypes, do they in general? And is it wrong to characterize a varnish as one or the other if it fits the stereotype because nobody can visually distinguish between them anyway? 

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19 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

I’m no expert, and less so on Cremonese instruments. From your pictures, it could be modern Chinese for all I know.

said to be of Carlo Castello 1760 of Genoa.” Who is the “said”?

A very "reputable" shop in Shibuya, largest chain in Japan in fact, in business since 1957 goes by the name of "Black pond" in Japanese. They even offered a certificate (their own of course) with the sale.

I dismissed it from a distance by the finish alone (I don't think it can be a 18th century, but you guys say what do I know). I didn't call out the emperor without clothes in the land of Yakuza, and just this week someone is closing the deal.

What can be said of the market when a nearby shop by the name of "Axx" selling a run of the mill Markie for $5,500. Heck, someone even brazen enough to pass off an Giuseppe I as a Del Gesu for a foundation.

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17 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

This may be true. However, stereotypes persist. Thick and/or soft matte varnishes are perceived as oil varnishes and thin and/or hard shiny varnishes are perceived as spirit varnishes. While neither one always conforms to such stereotypes, do they in general? And is it wrong to characterize a varnish as one or the other if it fits the stereotype because nobody can visually distinguish between them anyway? 

Very few makers (of old era) deviate from the usual type of varnish they use. It is one of the marker for identification.

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