Mike_Danielson Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 I think $250 is overpriced. I have an idea--I can put some horse manure in a box and ship it to you if you would like to make your own primer. Just reimburse me for the shipping. On another note: in spite of what Melvin says, lots of top notch luthiers use nitrate containing stuff for the primer. From my reading, Magister products (now exant), Old Wood, and Eugen Holtier products use nitrates--these are examples of important suppliers. There are others that use some type of dark rosin in alcohol to try and achieve the same result--namely, a ground that is brown is color. By now, there is a tremendous amount of data that tells use what the masters used in a very plausible way. You can figure it out if you do your homework. I think it is simple--just use Occam's razor (hope I spelled that right). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Mark Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 I don't buy this stuff because I have my own solution that I'm happy with, but I wouldn't call the product under discussion overpriced - that all depends: We can see above what the issues are: there's a) the effort of making it and the effort of learning how to make it. There's b) the cost and/or availability of the materials. Then there's c) the knowledge required to get a satisfactory product, which is also worth something. The creator of the product has already taken care of all these so you don't have to. This may be the place to note that some top makers apparently don't make their own varnishing materials, and may neither know how nor care to learn. Of course there's a risk in purchasing the product - it may not do what you want and you'll be out the price - but there's a risk in trying to make it yourself as well, particularly if you don't get good results or have trouble finding some needed information. People here are saying that there's little effort involved, materials are cheap or free, and that there's no secret so anyone can easily learn to do it; but these same people may tell you no more than to go do your homework if you have trouble getting the result you're looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted skreko Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Eugene makes a professional product that lots of top shelf violin makers use. He is also the nicest person on the planet and a very good maker to boot. He has been working on his varnish products for years. If you want to buy something off of the shelf, his stuff is on a very short list of what works well. Nitrite is used by just about everyone to some extent, no shame in it, it is a means to an end. People need to relax. The people that make varnish are heroes, make friends with them, even if you do not use their products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Mike_Danielson said: There are others that use some type of dark rosin in alcohol to try and achieve the same result--namely, a ground that is brown is color. And there are others who cook the wood to a brown color. I think that a colored coating, penetrating or not, is very tricky to get to work right, and does something different visually than wood that is brown from age, oxidation (natural or chemical), UV, or heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodacious Cowboy Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 On 7/12/2023 at 4:34 AM, Mike_Danielson said: Good question, Don. I think it does not make any difference because the nitrites will eventually oxidize up to nitrate when exposed to air. Oxidized horse pee should contain mostly nitrates. Nitrite vs Nitrate, 5 hours UV exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Szyper Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said: Nitrite vs Nitrate, 5 hours UV exposure. That is exactly my experience. Thanks for posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 43 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said: That is exactly my experience. Thanks for posting. Yep. Makes sense - the infamous Jacobs ladder ("ozone chamber") produces no2-, and it tans wood like a mfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Smith Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 One of my daughters loves to work out at the gym, and also picks up extra quick cash shoveling a commercial horse barn. Sounds like a business opportunity, I mean at $250.00 per oz. ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 I know a few folk who really respect Eugene's work. Best no to knock it until one tries it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Melvin Goldsmith said: I know a few folk who really respect Eugene's work. Best no to knock it until one tries it +1. I started using Holtier's varnish on the advice of a well-respected Canadian maker (also Cremona Triennial winner). I'm able to achieve good and repeatable results that I'm happy with. I haven't tried the primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_Danielson Posted July 15 Report Share Posted July 15 Cowboy's results certainly demonstrate that nitrite darkens the wood a lot faster than nitrate. If the bottom piece of wood is the control, then you can see that nitrate darkens the wood at a much slower rate than nitrite. This observation might have value if you want to have more control over the depth of color. I did a Google search but did not find anything that tells me how nitrite darkens the wood, and whether there are any adverse reactions we should know about. The literature does say that nitrite eventually oxidizes up to nitrate, but that bacteria can reverse the reaction direction--so, there is probably nitrite in fermented horse pee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted July 18 Author Report Share Posted July 18 Thanks everyone for the info and discussion. I think I'll stick with my own creation of grounding. A week UV box, no addition of any nitrites or whatever. Followed by Oldwood refractive Ground and Eugen Holtiers Brown varnish as a second coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 Looks nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted July 18 Author Report Share Posted July 18 1 minute ago, JacksonMaberry said: Looks nice Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Norfleet Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 56 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said: Looks nice And his shop is WAY to organized! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 4 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said: And his shop is WAY to organized! Highly suspicious! Also notice that he has one o' them toot-through rolling stools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted July 19 Report Share Posted July 19 Very nice cello. Can we see the front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted July 19 Author Report Share Posted July 19 2 hours ago, scordatura said: Very nice cello. Can we see the front? I will take some photos on the Weekend. Cello would be finish then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted July 20 Author Report Share Posted July 20 23 hours ago, scordatura said: Very nice cello. Can we see the front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 Beautiful work Michael! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 On 7/18/2023 at 11:17 AM, David Burgess said: Highly suspicious! Also notice that he has one o' them toot-through rolling stools. I thought that was some sort of clamping appliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 1 hour ago, Bill Yacey said: I thought that was some sort of clamping appliance. You might be right. Could be a clamp-style toot preventer, rather than a toot-through. Worthy of further investigation to sort out exactly what's going on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael K. Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 4 hours ago, David Burgess said: You might be right. Could be a clamp-style toot preventer, rather than a toot-through. Worthy of further investigation to sort out exactly what's going on there. Oh-Oh...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigboss223a Posted July 22 Report Share Posted July 22 (edited) Hi Mike, I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. I simply meant that if Holtier is following the Roubo historical horse dung/urine recipe I posted above. (Which I believe is how the Magister primer was made). Then $250 isn't unreasonable price for someone to deal with the mess of horse dung and wait around while it rots. I believe Brian Lisus had a go at this as well. trcmod.com Edited July 27 by bigboss223a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapiens Posted July 23 Report Share Posted July 23 On 7/18/2023 at 6:10 PM, Michael K. said: Thanks everyone for the info and discussion. I think I'll stick with my own creation of grounding. A week UV box, no addition of any nitrites or whatever. Followed by Oldwood refractive Ground and Eugen Holtiers Brown varnish as a second coat. The result makes you wonder what substances are inside Oldwood refractive Ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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