Eugen Holtier Wood Primer

[Michael K.]

Any of us who uses it? I find it a bid overpriced about $250 for 250ml water based.
Or does anyone know what substances are inside?

[joerobson]

I'm familiar with the product and process....but for information it is best to consult the maker: https://www.eugeneholtierviolinvarnish.com

[Davide Sora]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:41 AM, Michael K. said:

Any of us who uses it? I find it a bid overpriced about $250 for 250ml water based.
Or does anyone know what substances are inside?

I don't know, but if I wanted to get an idea, I would ask for the Safety Data Sheet, they are obliged to provide it to you. It's not the recipe, but at least what it contains must be written.

[Peter Lynch]

I have used it.  Great product(s). Not sure of ingredients but seems like some kind of oxidizer with some added color.  Eugene’s products along with the Old Wood System which I believe has similarities, are popular among a fair number of American professional makers.  The origin of this system I believe is the Magister products which were widely popular but are no longer available. 

[Nick Allen]

I just bought some. It's really great stuff. It gives just the right color to the wood. Not too hot in tone. A nice cinnamon brown with a little orange. It just looks like oxidized wood. 

[Mike_Danielson]

Here is a practical tip--if you do not know what is in it, do not use it.  The MSDS only gives approximate compositions and leaves lots of stuff out.  This advice applies to all varnish products.  There is no reason after 300+ years for this to be a secret.

[FiddleMkr]

2 hours ago, Nick Allen said:

I just bought some. It's really great stuff. It gives just the right color to the wood. Not too hot in tone. A nice cinnamon brown with a little orange. It just looks like oxidized wood. 

Does it highlight annual rings? 

[Peter Lynch]

1 hour ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Here is a practical tip--if you do not know what is in it, do not use it.  The MSDS only gives approximate compositions and leaves lots of stuff out.  This advice applies to all varnish products.  There is no reason after 300+ years for this to be a secret.

This is a business decision of his.  Not sure his thinking, but it seems that he is in a much better position to decide this than someone not involved.  His products are used and respected among top tier professional makers.  

[DiemViolins]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:41 AM, Michael K. said:

Any of us who uses it? I find it a bid overpriced about $250 for 250ml water based.
Or does anyone know what substances are inside?

That's big business!
A complete Varnish system costs US$525,=  

[Peter Lynch]

3 hours ago, DutchViolins said:

That's big business!
A complete Varnish system costs US$525,=  

I believe you get at least  4-5 violins out of the package. Say $125 per violin for varnish using a system that is repeatable, straight forward and high quality results.  Seems like a bargain.  

[JacksonMaberry]

8 hours ago, Peter Lynch said:

I believe you get at least  4-5 violins out of the package. Say $125 per violin for varnish using a system that is repeatable, straight forward and high quality results.  Seems like a bargain.  

Yeah it's really not unreasonable. I agree with Peter.

[Mike_Danielson]

No one answered the OP's question as to what is in the bottle.  I am going to suggest a 4% sodium nitrate solution with about 1 drop of a brown TransTint dye.  I am not certain what color Transtint dye but a little study should solve the problem.

The bottle cost more than what is in the bottle.  So, $250 is really overpriced.  By now, everyone knows that the Magister ground stuff contains nitrates and is probably derived from horse pee which will also provide some brownish color. 

Anyway, all the information to make your own stuff is out there in the literature.  You can save a ton of money and also be certain that nothing bad is going to happen over the long term if you make the stuff yourself.

[Don Noon]

Nitrite or nitrate?

[Mike_Danielson]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Nitrite or nitrate?

Good question, Don.  I think it does not make any difference because the nitrites will eventually oxidize up to nitrate when exposed to air.  Oxidized horse pee should contain mostly nitrates.

I use a dilute sodium nitrate solution when I UV color the wood, and I get that brown/orange color in the wood in a few hours of exposure. 

We all know that nitrites are added to bacon, etc to preserve the meat from mold, botulism, and to maintain the red color.  Nitrites are considered more toxic to us.  Ground water in agricultural areas are contaminated with nitrates from fertilizer--nitrates are everywhere.

[Urban Luthier]

If the Holiter stuff is the same as the Magister primer then the Roubo recipe below is pretty much how it is done from organic materials. Cut from the Bass Book. If this is how Holiter is making it, the stuff will have a shelf life and the cost IMHO is reasonable.  

"Before finishing the dyeing of wood, I believe I ought to give a least-costly method of dyeing white wood red, which is done in the following manner: You take some horse dung, which you put in a bucket of which the bottom is pierced with many holes, and you place it above another bucket, into which falls the water from the dung, as it gradually rots. When it does not rot fast enough, you water it from time to time with some horse urine, which helps a lot and at the same time gives a red water, which not only stains the surface of the wood, but penetrates the interior 3 to 4 lines deep. In staining the wood with this dye, one must take care that all the pieces be of the same species, and about equal in density if one wishes that they be of equal colour throughout. This observation is general for all water-based stains, which have no palpable thickness or even appearance [they leave no residue or any evident change in appearance], which requires the cabinetmaker to make a choice of wood of equal colour and a density as I mentioned before." 

[Mike_Danielson]

2 hours ago, Urban Luthier said:

If the Holiter stuff is the same as the Magister primer then the Roubo recipe below is pretty much how it is done from organic materials. Cut from the Bass Book. If this is how Holiter is making it, the stuff will have a shelf life and the cost IMHO is reasonable.  

 

You can purchase 250 g of sodium nitrate for about $13 on ebay.  That is enough for 500 years of violin making.  That is cheap enough that you can throw out the solution every couple of months though I suspect the solution is stable.

The next best thing is to go to a horse barn and get some horse manure and make your own.  Probably free.

Still cannot see how this commercial product is a good deal unless you do not want to admit you got screwed, but that is a psychological issue.  

Like I say, isn't it about time after 300+ years that the truth comes out?  There are no secrets, but there is misinformation.  There is a place for a commercial supplier for those who do not want to make their own stuff--but they need to say what is in their products.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I don't think top end makers are using nitrites any more or chemicals that will increase the hydroscopicity of the wood although sadly  a whole generation have been doing that.

[joerobson]

40 minutes ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I don't think top end makers are using nitrites any more or chemicals that will increase the hydroscopicity of the wood although sadly  a whole generation have been doing that.

True. Also these chemical reactions tend to homogenized the colors of the spruce.

[JacksonMaberry]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:51 PM, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I don't think top end makers are using nitrites any more or chemicals that will increase the hydroscopicity of the wood although sadly  a whole generation have been doing that.

Its not quite so simple.  While nitrites and nitrates are hygroscopic or deliquescent salts of sodium or potassium and nitrous or nitric acid, when prepared as an aqueous solution they present as a sort of ionic soup - alkali metal cations and nitrite/nitrate anions floating around in the solvent (water). 

It's the anions that are doing the work - they react with the cellulose fibers (as well as other components of wood - hemicellulose, lignin, etc) causing the physical changes observed, such as the change in color, through the chemical change of oxidation. The important thing though is that the nitrate or nitrite salt does not remain unchanged - it reacts with the wood forming new compounds. 

I am not clear on what happens with the sodium cations. A real chemist will have to say more about that if so inclined, and hopefully to correct whatever I may be wrong on. 

[violins88]

Jackson,

You and Joe Robson clearly have the chemical “chops” to unravel this mystery. I mean the chemistry of what is happening. I can imagine that the person who unravels the mystery and shares everything will be rewarded with notoriety and thanks….not trivial things. Please do it soon. I am 76.

And since someone brought up Bill Gates, well, Bill could easily donate the $5 million or so to solve this problem. A drop in the bucket for him. We just need to provide the rationale as to how many people will be lifted out of poverty, and how much the arts will benefit. So be nice to Bill.

[JacksonMaberry]

5 hours ago, violins88 said:

Jackson,

You and Joe Robson clearly have the chemical “chops” to unravel this mystery. I mean the chemistry of what is happening. I can imagine that the person who unravels the mystery and shares everything will be rewarded with notoriety and thanks….not trivial things. Please do it soon. I am 76.

And since someone brought up Bill Gates, well, Bill could easily donate the $5 million or so to solve this problem. A drop in the bucket for him. We just need to provide the rationale as to how many people will be lifted out of poverty, and how much the arts will benefit. So be nice to Bill.

I appreciate your confidence, truly! But I am a simply country alchemist, not a genuine chemist. It may be too big a challenge for me likes of me

[Michael Szyper]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:51 PM, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I don't think top end makers are using nitrites any more or chemicals that will increase the hydroscopicity of the wood although sadly  a whole generation have been doing that.

Came back from this years Oberlin workshop and can‘t agree about no top end maker using it. 

[Michael Szyper]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:44 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Its not quite so simple.  While nitrites and nitrates are hygroscopic or deliquescent salts of sodium or potassium and nitrous or nitric acid, when prepared as an aqueous solution they present as a sort of ionic soup - alkali metal anions and nitrite/nitrate cations floating around in the solvent (water). 

It's the cations that are doing the work - they react with the cellulose fibers (as well as other components of wood - hemicellulose, lignin, etc) causing the physical changes observed, such as the change in color, through the chemical change of oxidation. The important thing though is that the nitrate or nitrite salt does not remain unchanged - it reacts with the wood forming new compounds. 

I am not clear on what happens with the sodium anions. A real chemist will have to say more about that if so inclined, and hopefully to correct whatever I may be wrong on. 

Hi there Jackson, potassium and sodium are the kations

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, Michael Szyper said:

Hi there Jackson, potassium and sodium are the kations

Ah goodness, thank you Michael. I'll edit the post to prevent any possible confusion.

[Urban Luthier]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:35 PM, Mike_Danielson said:

You can purchase 250 g of sodium nitrate for about $13 on ebay.  That is enough for 500 years of violin making.  That is cheap enough that you can throw out the solution every couple of months though I suspect the solution is stable.

The next best thing is to go to a horse barn and get some horse manure and make your own.  Probably free.

Still cannot see how this commercial product is a good deal unless you do not want to admit you got screwed, but that is a psychological issue.  

Like I say, isn't it about time after 300+ years that the truth comes out?  There are no secrets, but there is misinformation.  There is a place for a commercial supplier for those who do not want to make their own stuff--but they need to say what is in their products.

Hi Mike, I'm afraid you misunderstood my post. I simply meant that if Holtier is following the Roubo historical horse dung/urine recipe I posted above. (Which I believe is how the Magister primer was made). Then $250 isn't unreasonable price for someone to deal with the mess of horse dung and wait around while it rots. I believe Brian Lisus had a go at this as well. 

if the Holiter stuff is made from commercially obtained sodium nitrate, then I agree - overpriced. 

either way I haven't purchased or used Holiter's primer so I cant comment first hand. I do like his varnish however