Can someone help me identify my violin?

[hnryhouuu]

I bought it recently at a local private dealer for $10000 usd. But it doesn’t have a certificate and its maker is unknown as shown in the signature inside the violin. The dealer only says it is Italian and I thought it sounds unique so I still went ahead and bought it. Can someone help me identify this violin? Thanks.

Edited July 8, 2023 by hnryhouuu
To provide more photos

[martin swan]

I can't see any particular reason to say whether it might or might not be Italian, though on balance I'd be inclined to believe the label belongs.

The construction is very basic, it seems to be the work of a self-taught maker, and it doesn't adhere to any geographical or workshop tradition.

So then it's a case of what you are happy to pay for an Italian label ... 

[hnryhouuu]

11 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I can't see any particular reason to say whether it might or might not be Italian, though on balance I'd be inclined to believe the label belongs.

The construction is very basic, it seems to be the work of a self-taught maker, and it doesn't adhere to any geographical or workshop tradition.

So then it's a case of what you are happy to pay for an Italian label ... 

I see….. so it isint from any known maker if I’m interpreting you correctly?

 

[Blank face]

This doesn't even look autididactical to me, but simply Bohemian and certainly older than 1955, possibly with a newer overcoating. The label appears to be some fancy addition. If someone claims to have paid 10K I would ask to see the receipt.

[FiddleDoug]

An unknown maker with no provenance for $10,000??? I'm not sure about that. Local private dealer? What kind of dealer? I'd say take it to a really good violin shop for a second opinion.

[Wood Butcher]

Yet again, this highlights the importance of asking questions before buying something.

Buying a violin of this value, from a private individual, when you have no idea what you are getting, is simply financial suicide. There are none of the protections you would have in law, such as when buying from a shop.

A similar school violin, of the period, which hadn't been revarnished would have cost only a fraction (less than 1/10) of the purchase price

[jezzupe]

Or....basically you want to know how much you can get for it on ebay

[GeorgeH]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

This doesn't even look autididactical to me, but simply Bohemian and certainly older than 1955, possibly with a newer overcoating

I kinda agree with @martin swan. It doesn't look like "the usual" to me. The wide-eyed volute, purfling in the corners, edges, and ffs don't hang together, and look auto-didactical to me.

Hard to say if it was revarnished or if it was a modern varnish to start with.

I'd like to see close-up pictures of the rib-joins, bottom rib, button, and the back of the scroll.

[jezzupe]

I'm quite sure that is simply a fresh French Polish

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

I kinda agree with @martin swan. It doesn't look like "the usual" to me. The wide-eyed volute, purfling in the corners, edges, and ffs don't hang together, and look auto-didactical to me.

Hard to say if it was revarnished or if it was a modern varnish to start with.

I'd like to see close-up pictures of the rib-joins, bottom rib, button, and the back of the scroll.

In the best case I would assume that "Dottore Ludovico G(irametti?)...S(an) Benedotto del Tronto" used some older parts, stripped and revarnished them, recut the ff etc. in his sparetime.

[hnryhouuu]

12 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Yet again, this highlights the importance of asking questions before buying something.

Buying a violin of this value, from a private individual, when you have no idea what you are getting, is simply financial suicide. There are none of the protections you would have in law, such as when buying from a shop.

A similar school violin, of the period, which hadn't been revarnished would have cost only a fraction (less than 1/10) of the purchase price

I think the varnish is recently added only for repairing or renewing purposes, but 1/10 of the price is something I didn’t know about.

13 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

An unknown maker with no provenance for $10,000??? I'm not sure about that. Local private dealer? What kind of dealer? I'd say take it to a really good violin shop for a second opinion.

Thanks for all of your opinions. Luckily,  the dealer said I could exchange for another violin so I’m not dead set for this. 
I understand that it’s a huge risk splurging such amount of money on this, but I have a concert next week so I just simply chose something I thought sounded good, as my previous Chinese violin is simply incapable of handling Ysaÿe sonatas.

 

12 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

I kinda agree with @martin swan. It doesn't look like "the usual" to me. The wide-eyed volute, purfling in the corners, edges, and ffs don't hang together, and look auto-didactical to me.

Hard to say if it was revarnished or if it was a modern varnish to start with.

I'd like to see close-up pictures of the rib-joins, bottom rib, button, and the back of the scroll.

sure. I will upload more photos for deeper inspections

[hnryhouuu]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:49 PM, martin swan said:

I can't see any particular reason to say whether it might or might not be Italian, though on balance I'd be inclined to believe the label belongs.

The construction is very basic, it seems to be the work of a self-taught maker, and it doesn't adhere to any geographical or workshop tradition.

So then it's a case of what you are happy to pay for an Italian label ... 

 

On 7/8/2023 at 7:15 PM, Blank face said:

This doesn't even look autididactical to me, but simply Bohemian and certainly older than 1955, possibly with a newer overcoating. The label appears to be some fancy addition. If someone claims to have paid 10K I would ask to see the receipt.

could it be something based on a Amati tradition? And is it more likely for it to be from 1855 or 1955?

[Wckoek]

52 minutes ago, hnryhouuu said:

 

could it be something based on a Amati tradition? And is it more likely for it to be from 1855 or 1955?

Return it and forget about the deal, I can get a much better violin in the white from Romanian workshop for $600.

The fingerboard is so new that it is put together from some salvaged and refinished body.

[hnryhouuu]

4 minutes ago, Wckoek said:

Return it and forget about the deal, I can get a much better violin in the white from Romanian workshop for $600.

Thanks for your reply. When you say ‘better’, do you mean in terms of condition, value, or reliability? As in my opinion it does sound quite good, just very unsure about the pricing tho I prefer the sound of this over something like an Amédée Dieudonné, to be quite frank.

[Wckoek]

7 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

Thanks for your reply. When you say ‘better’, do you mean in terms of condition, value, or reliability? As in my opinion it does sound quite good, just very unsure about the pricing tho I prefer the sound of this over something like an Amédée Dieudonné, to be quite frank.

I like Japanese sports car over Ferrari really, would I pay Ferrari price for say a Fairlady Z or even GTR?

Certainly not.

[jezzupe]

8 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

Thanks for your reply. When you say ‘better’, do you mean in terms of condition, value, or reliability? As in my opinion it does sound quite good, just very unsure about the pricing tho I prefer the sound of this over something like an Amédée Dieudonné, to be quite frank.

I think the question you want to ask yourself is "if I needed to sell this tomorrow could I get 10k for this violin? who else would pay that much? and if not 10K how close to to that would someone be willing to pay?"

Something tells me you would be waiting a very long time to find a buyer at that price

 

[hnryhouuu]

Thank you guys for the valuable comments. I have already found the exact origin and maker of the violin, which is Ludovico Giovanetti from San Benedetto Del Tronto, an Italian town. It’s exact model from the same year (but mine is different and in better condition ) is auctioned for  2400gpb.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=73259

[Delabo]

8 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

Thank you guys for the valuable comments. I have already found the exact origin and maker of the violin, which is Ludovico Giovanetti from San Benedetto Del Tronto, an Italian town. It’s exact model from the same year (but mine is different and in better condition ) is auctioned for  2400gpb.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=73259

Congratulations! you have found your actual violin. Its not very often that happens.

I may be wrong, but I have tried to decipher your cryptic name and think I have found you playing Wieniawski Violin Concerto No.2, 3rd Movement on youtube?  Is that you?  if it is, then I am impressed.

[Blank face]

9 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

Thank you guys for the valuable comments. I have already found the exact origin and maker of the violin, which is Ludovico Giovanetti from San Benedetto Del Tronto, an Italian town. It’s exact model from the same year (but mine is different and in better condition ) is auctioned for  2400gpb.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=73259

It‘s exactly the same violin, the wood figure at the back is 100% identical, and every other small detail, too, even at the label. Possibly it was overpolished in the meantime. So it might be the one and only he „made“, not unusual for this kind of amateur. 

The comparison tells also a lot about the reliability of auction photos.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

It‘s exactly the same violin, the wood figure at the back is 100% identical, and every other small detail, too, even at the label.

Funny that they would make an attribution to the labeled maker when it is doubtful that they have seen another example of his work. Today, I think this violin would go to the T2 auction without any pro forma certificate from Tarisio.

[Delabo]

Florian Leonhard gave a certificate to one that sold at Southebys. He has also included the maker in his book "The Makers of Central Italy". Sadly, to my eyes, the OP violin does not look like the one that sold at Sothebys. It could be  that the maker was trying something different at the time which might explain why it looks so different.  He would have been in his sixties at the time...............

https://www.sothebys.com/zh/auctions/ecatalogue/2012/musical-instruments-l12250/lot.9.html

 

[Blank face]

Now the plot thickens a bit.

The same (primo 1950)once again a bit earlier was listed here:https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/musical-instruments-l11251/lot.84.html

showing the front. Here it looks definitely more refined than the OP.

Is it possible that someone making a rather professionel looking instrument in 1950 would a few years later, maybe due to age or sickness, make something crude like the OP?

[Richf]

FWIW, Martin Brinser's booklet on 20th-century Italian makers, lists Lodovico Giovanetti:  "b. 1893.  Doctor-amateur maker.  Yellow or golden-brown varnish.  Nice workmanship.  Branded." 

[hnryhouuu]

22 hours ago, Delabo said:

Congratulations! you have found your actual violin. Its not very often that happens.

I may be wrong, but I have tried to decipher your cryptic name and think I have found you playing Wieniawski Violin Concerto No.2, 3rd Movement on youtube?  Is that you?  if it is, then I am impressed.

yep that’s me. Although I would like to say that was recorded two years ago. The Paganini caprice 5 that I played uploaded by the same channel with 8.1k views is recorded more recently haha

thanks For the complement anyways! I’m just 15 and I will keep improving!

[hnryhouuu]

18 hours ago, Blank face said:

showing the front. Here it looks definitely more refined than the OP.

Is it possible that someone making a rather professionel looking instrument in 1950 would a few years later, maybe due to age or sickness, make something crude like the OP?

Hm, this is a very interesting point. Or maybe after his golden period he decided to make something unique instead of following a certain school or style(?)

19 hours ago, Delabo said:

Sadly, to my eyes, the OP violin does not look like the one that sold at Sothebys. It could be  that the maker was trying something different at the time which might explain why it looks so different.  He would have been in his sixties at the time...............

Yes, the 1950 one is definitely different with my 1955 violin. And due to the revarnishing, it had become more dark in colour and defies from original colour