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An English violin?


Mel S.

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5 hours ago, Mel S. said:

Thank you for your thoughts @Wood Butcher! I'm wondering why an experienced maker didn't put a label, writing or stamp inside his instrument telling full name, location an year of making. That would be logical for me. But there ist no sign of any signature inside the violin. I've noticed I didn't show a picture of the inside back plate, so here it is.

boden-innen.thumb.jpg.3ee5d1969e6549f0688900844791d5e5.jpg

Concerning the peg holes that could indeed be the reason but was a bad decision in the long run because those cracks at the A peg holes are difficult to restore.

Since the purfling isn't only decorative but prevents cracks in top and back is the painted on purfling a sign of a very old instrument when inlaid purfling was uncommon yet? Or rather the sign of a cheap instrument? I don't know when makers started to do inlaid purfling but I've read that old instruments from Salzkammergut region, from the Vogtland area and some cheap JTL's had painted on purfling. 

Until now I haven't found a maker with the initials "I. C.". I'm not sure if the letter ahead of the "I" looking like "J" could belong to the signature.

the inside back plate looks sanded which would explain the lack of label,  makers mark etc

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2 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Or water damaged, that seam looks like it's been through the wringer.

The back plate was in two halves for a long time and therefore really warped. The previous owner made an attempt in gluing them back together with titebond and the outer back looked like a camelback viewed from above, so I removed the titebond with water.

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The violin came with this bridge and chin rest. The stamp on the bridge "NACH PANPI" suggests a German speaking origin, and the chin rest seems to be made of bakelite with only one attachment leg (Is it called this way?). Maybe they tell you something. 

steg.thumb.jpg.fd93118d53d2f25a3493ee6c43af27c4.jpg

kinnhalter.jpg.ddeb990f1da76c7226eb4d50fbc3aa78.jpg

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That's why I initially didn't post pictures of them. But since the origin of my violin seems to be difficult to determine I thought maybe they can give a hint. I haven't seen such a brigde stamp before and those chin rests were common in UK I think.

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Sorry, I meant the violin, not the chin rest. Jacob suggested the time of origin possibly on the first half of the 19th century and since I have no clue I'm interested in you opinion. 

But bridge and chin rest show that the violin was serviced in Germany before it landed on an attic in Glasgow.

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11 minutes ago, Mel S. said:

But bridge and chin rest show that the violin was serviced in Germany before it landed on an attic in Glasgow.

Such parts were exported to every place in the world, so surely to Glasgow, too. They also could have been added to the violin (as case, bow, or anything) just last month. As WB said, they won’t tell you anything about the violin or it’s history.

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1 hour ago, Mel S. said:

Sorry, I meant the violin, not the chin rest. Jacob suggested the time of origin possibly on the first half of the 19th century and since I have no clue I'm interested in you opinion. 

But bridge and chin rest show that the violin was serviced in Germany before it landed on an attic in Glasgow.

I think when it comes to instruments, which have unusual features, it tends to make them look quite archaic. Therefore, there is a tendency to overestimate the age of such things. People working in isolated places, tended to be using ideas and styles, which were behind the times, compared to large cities.

It is old, of that there is no doubt, and will be 19th century. My feeling is 1830-1850's, but if you really are interested to know more, a dendro report may reveal some more information (I'm so sorry, Jacob).

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On 7/4/2023 at 3:43 PM, Mel S. said:

The back plate was in two halves for a long time and therefore really warped. The previous owner made an attempt in gluing them back together with titebond and the outer back looked like a camelback viewed from above, so I removed the titebond with water.

Well there you have it. By the way related to the "ic phd" thing, I wouldn't automatically associate that with the maker, perhaps one of the early owners?

It will be a challenging project to get that back re glued properly without altering the dimensions

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20 hours ago, jezzupe said:

Well there you have it. By the way related to the "ic phd" thing, I wouldn't automatically associate that with the maker, perhaps one of the early owners?

It will be a challenging project to get that back re glued properly without altering the dimensions

The ink the signature ist written with seems to be the same the purfling was drawn on with, so I think the signature is original to the violin. Though it may be the owner's mark in case the maker has built the violin for himself/herself ;)

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25 minutes ago, violinsRus said:

I vote that the 'signature' is C.P.H.D., skip the I, since it looks rather like a spurious scratch with no period!  Is that some abbreviation for a common Latin (or other) phrase?   

Maybe it means that the violin was built by someone with a PhD in violin making from Cremona :)

I bet Stradivari had a CremonaPHD as well

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2 hours ago, violinsRus said:

I vote that the 'signature' is C.P.H.D., skip the I, since it looks rather like a spurious scratch with no period!  Is that some abbreviation for a common Latin (or other) phrase?   

I don't think you can skip the "I" because then the signature wouldn't be optical balanced anymore as it is right now. And that's the reason why I don't think the "J" ist really a "J" but rather a scratch. 
I've never learned Latin but I found a list of Latin abbreviations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_abbreviations

Nothing useful therein unfortunately... But since back then people were very religious maybe it stands for something like "in consilium placere honorem dei" which translates to "in order to please the honor of God" or similar.

1 hour ago, Mille regardz said:

Maybe it means that the violin was built by someone with a PhD in violin making from Cremona :)

I bet Stradivari had a CremonaPHD as well

Haha, have there already been PhD's in Stradivari's time?

1 hour ago, Delabo said:

IC. P.H.D.  could mean that the violin was once in the Imperial College (IC) (London) where you can take your P.H.D. (Doctor of Philosophy). They have their own orchestra..........

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/music-and-arts/music/

Then the violin would be younger than estimated since the university was founded in 1907. Honestly I don't think it means "Ph D".

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