False bow 'xxx A PARIS'

[Renegade Violin]

The question is... The Germans produced bows with 'xxx A PARIS' prints, both workshop and cottage... In other words, they weren't originals, they were 'false labels'. Has there been such a practice in France, and if so, on what scale? The second question, if this is also done in France, is it possible to recognize which are 'French' and which are 'German'?

[jacobsaunders]

49 minutes ago, Renegade said:

is it possible to recognize which are 'French' and which are 'German'?

The ones you buy on ebay in bundles of half a dozen or more are German

[Violadamore]

2 hours ago, Renegade said:

The question is... The Germans produced bows with 'xxx A PARIS' prints, both workshop and cottage... In other words, they weren't originals, they were 'false labels'. Has there been such a practice in France, and if so, on what scale? The second question, if this is also done in France, is it possible to recognize which are 'French' and which are 'German'?

I pointed out in another thread that, in the bow making business from roughly 1850 to 1950, there was considerable "cross-pollination" going on, particularly in terms of who studied with whom.  As the centers of production of both bows and of bow makers were in Mirecourt and in Markneukirchen, and since most bows produced were of the trade or student variety, I'd consider the inference to be clear.  Just to ice the cake, I have a nice example (which I've posted here before), of a Voiron-marked bow, bearing "FRANCE" on its underside, which the learned gallery here pronounced to be unquestionably German.  It plays well for me, and I got it for very little.

In other words, yes, the difference can usually be told (maybe   ), but for performance rather than offering price, it probably doesn't matter.  IMHO, you should be shopping by trying them out, rather than staring at photos, anyway. 

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

for performance rather than offering price, it probably doesn't matter.  

The difference in performance at auctions or retail is more likely several zeros (at the right side of the number),  so for bread and butter it matters quite a lot.

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, Renegade said:

The question is... The Germans produced bows with 'xxx A PARIS' prints, both workshop and cottage... In other words, they weren't originals, they were 'false labels'. Has there been such a practice in France, and if so, on what scale? The second question, if this is also done in France, is it possible to recognize which are 'French' and which are 'German'?

You should mind that in the Vogtlandish cottages there were workshops, and that workshop of… means usually bought in cottage industry.

 In the Mirecourt production it was very common to mark „a Paris“, though usually more at violins than bows. OTOH many bows branded by Paris shops were often made elsewhere, too.

[Renegade Violin]

5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

The ones you buy on ebay in bundles of half a dozen or more are German

Since I'm using your knowledge, you can probably guess that I'm not buying.
You don't understand me at all. My questions stem from ignorance, not stupidity.

[Renegade Violin]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

I pointed out in another thread that, in the bow making business from roughly 1850 to 1950, there was considerable "cross-pollination" going on, particularly in terms of who studied with whom.  As the centers of production of both bows and of bow makers were in Mirecourt and in Markneukirchen, and since most bows produced were of the trade or student variety, I'd consider the inference to be clear.  Just to ice the cake, I have a nice example (which I've posted here before), of a Voiron-marked bow, bearing "FRANCE" on its underside, which the learned gallery here pronounced to be unquestionably German.  It plays well for me, and I got it for very little.

In other words, yes, the difference can usually be told (maybe   ), but for performance rather than offering price, it probably doesn't matter.  IMHO, you should be shopping by trying them out, rather than staring at photos, anyway. 

I pointed out in another thread that, in the bow making business from roughly 1850 to 1950, there was considerable "cross-pollination" going on, particularly in terms of who studied with whom.  As the centers of production of both bows and of bow makers were in Mirecourt and in Markneukirchen, and since most bows produced were of the trade or student variety, I'd consider the inference to be clear.  

This still doesn't answer my question: Did the French producers (the trade or student variety) 'pretend' the French masters too?

Just to ice the cake, I have a nice example (which I've posted here before), of a Voiron-marked bow, bearing "FRANCE" on its underside, which the learned gallery here pronounced to be unquestionably German.  It plays well for me, and I got it for very little.

I also have 'Voiron', even two one German and the other I think German. German already prepared by a good luthier (not by me) - plays phenomenally, and cost about 100 Euro. The second is being prepared.

In other words, yes, the difference can usually be told (maybe  ), but for performance rather than offering price, it probably doesn't matter.  IMHO, you should be shopping by trying them out, rather than staring at photos, anyway.

Thank you very much. You explained a lot. I'm staring at the pictures because I don't have direct access to these strings. By the way, out of my 50 questions, I only make one purchase. For example, I knowingly bought 'BAUER', that 'pseudo Vuillaume' that I call 'big foot'

[Blank face]

2 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Did the French producers (the trade or student variety) 'pretend' the French masters too?

Of course. Names like Tourte, Lupot, Peccatte or Vuillaume can be often found at common or better quality Mirecourt bows.

[Renegade Violin]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

The difference in performance at auctions or retail is more likely several zeros (at the right side of the number),  so for bread and butter it matters quite a lot.

I noticed it, even in the auction descriptions. If the seller is sure that he offers German, he does not even pay attention to a reliable description.

[Renegade Violin]

9 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Of course. Names like Tourte, Lupot, Peccatte or Vuillaume can be often found at common or better quality Mirecourt bows.

 thx.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

12 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Of course. Names like Tourte, Lupot, Peccatte or Vuillaume can be often found at common or better quality Mirecourt bows.

The Bazins even made a Tubbs model, though I don't believe it was often branded as a Tubbs... at least not by the Bazins.  The one I have in the shop presently bears a Bazin brand.

[Renegade Violin]

And did those production markings use 'both sides'? If not, that would be one of the obvious clues for me. First step to recognition

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, Renegade said:

And did those production markings use 'both sides'? If not, that would be one of the obvious clues for me. First step to recognition

In opposite to the general opinion these assembly marks can be found occasionally at French bows, too. But more in the Mirecourt mass production and not so regulary as in the Markneukirchen bowmaking.

The existence or absence of these marks alone isn’t a clear identification feature.

[GeorgeH]

3 hours ago, Blank face said:

In opposite to the general opinion these assembly marks can be found occasionally at French bows, too. But more in the Mirecourt mass production and not so regulary as in the Markneukirchen bowmaking.

The existence or absence of these marks alone isn’t a clear identification feature.

When the French did use manufacturing marks, didn't they put them in a different  location on the stick and/or frog than the Germans?

[Renegade Violin]

Have you noticed that all the cuts are always at a certain angle? For example: 1, 2, 3...6, 7,... I've never seen such ones - II, III, VI, VII... only //, ///, V/, V//... IMHO the reason is to reduce the risk of creating an initial cracking process. Perfectly perpendicular incisions could carry such a risk. What do you think about it?

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

When the French did use manufacturing marks, didn't they put them in a different  location on the stick and/or frog than the Germans?

These two photos above are randomly matched, but indeed, the incisions are very far from the chamber. I've seen them much closer. hmm...

[jacobsaunders]

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

In opposite to the general opinion these assembly marks can be found occasionally at French bows, too. But more in the Mirecourt mass production and not so regulary as in the Markneukirchen bowmaking.

The existence or absence of these marks alone isn’t a clear identification feature.

Yes, but these assembly marks are ubiquitous on German (Markneukirchen area) bows, but exceptions on French ones, so that a Roman numeral on the bottom plate or the stick will strongly suggest a German origin

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

When the French did use manufacturing marks, didn't they put them in a different  location on the stick and/or frog than the Germans?

 

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yes, but these assembly marks are ubiquitous on German (Markneukirchen area) bows, but exceptions on French ones, so that a Roman numeral on the bottom plate or the stick will strongly suggest a German origin

What I noticed was that they can be all over the place, from under the slide till the end of the lapping, but are just slightly scratched and not as deeply carved as in their German counterparts. And yes, it’s rather an exception at Mirecourt bows, though sometimes it seems that they were filed away from the metal frog slide but can be found after having removed the winding (what’s more easy if with light scratches).

[martin swan]

This is an extremely complex question!

Some clarification to one aspect of it can be had by looking at laberte catalogues like this one : 

https://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/laberte_humbert_1912_2.htm

so we can see that various brands were used in “hommage”

I don’t believe there was much (if any) cross-fertilisation between French and German trade production, though we can identify a good number of German makers who spent time with parisian makers. This is generally at the higher level eg. the Vuillaume shop.

There are all sorts of other issues relating to French production ie. The legitimate or unauthorised use of an authentic brand by a later maker. For example the Peccatte brand ended up with Jj Martin, the Voirin brand seems to have found its way to Eugene Cuniot who also legitimately made use of the Emile Ouchard brand etc

There’s an interesting distinction to be made between authentic brands found on the wrong bow and inauthentic or fake brands …

Jeffrey, we’ve had a couple of CN Bazins that were branded Tubbs - one of them helpfully also branded France under the frog!

 

[Violadamore]

23 hours ago, Renegade said:

This still doesn't answer my question: Did the French producers (the trade or student variety) 'pretend' the French masters too?

Actually, I did, if you interpreted what I said accurately.  Since you can't seem to correct dots, or read between the lines, and you appear to have never dug around in the violin brand name lists (and other documentation) at Terrier's website, yes, the French used each other's stamps/labels constantly and shamelessly.  They also bought and sold trademarks a lot, as well as made up fictitious makers repeatedly, and bought in and relabeled stuff as well, just like nearly every other dealer and wholesaler in the trade..  IMHO, the result is confusion where Mirecourt trade bows and violins are concerned.

[Renegade Violin]

52 minutes ago, martin swan said:

This is an extremely complex question!

Some clarification to one aspect of it can be had by looking at laberte catalogues like this one : 

https://www.luthiers-mirecourt.com/laberte_humbert_1912_2.htm

so we can see that various brands were used in “hommage”

I don’t believe there was much (if any) cross-fertilisation between French and German trade production, though we can identify a good number of German makers who spent time with parisian makers. This is generally at the higher level eg. the Vuillaume shop.

There are all sorts of other issues relating to French production ie. The legitimate or unauthorised use of an authentic brand by a later maker. For example the Peccatte brand ended up with Jj Martin, the Voirin brand seems to have found its way to Eugene Cuniot who also legitimately made use of the Emile Ouchard brand etc

There’s an interesting distinction to be made between authentic brands found on the wrong bow and inauthentic or fake brands …

Jeffrey, we’ve had a couple of CN Bazins that were branded Tubbs - one of them helpfully also branded France under the frog!

 

What? ...but I trample in. It's deeper than the Mariana Trench.

[Violadamore]

1 minute ago, Renegade said:

What? ...but I trample in. It's deeper than the Mariana Trench.

Don't take any carbon composite bows with you........ 

[martin swan]

1 minute ago, Violadamore said:

Actually, I did, if you interpreted what I said accurately.  Since you can't seem to correct dots, or read between the lines, and you appear to have never dug around in the violin brand name lists (and other documentation) at Terrier's website, yes, the French used each other's stamps/labels constantly and shamelessly.  They also bought and sold trademarks a lot, as well as made up fictitious makers repeatedly, and bought in and relabeled stuff as well, just like nearly every other dealer and wholesaler in the trade..  IMHO, the result is confusion where Mirecourt trade bows and violins are concerned.

I’m sorry but there’s very little confusion. A Mirecourt trade bow is a Mirecourt trade bow, however it’s branded.

[martin swan]

4 minutes ago, Renegade said:

What? ...but I trample in. It's deeper than the Mariana Trench.

I just pointed out some of the obvious turbulence on the surface - there are an infinity of depths to explore 

[Renegade Violin]

21 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Actually, I did, if you interpreted what I said accurately.  Since you can't seem to correct dots, or read between the lines, and you appear to have never dug around in the violin brand name lists (and other documentation) at Terrier's website, yes, the French used each other's stamps/labels constantly and shamelessly.  They also bought and sold trademarks a lot, as well as made up fictitious makers repeatedly, and bought in and relabeled stuff as well, just like nearly every other dealer and wholesaler in the trade..  IMHO, the result is confusion where Mirecourt trade bows and violins are concerned.

You're probably right, I missed something. I didn't even know that I used his website several times. Mainly I was looking for a catalog of a specific artist from specific years. I didn't think to look there for an answer to a rather complex question.
By the way, Maestronet is also for those who don't have already so much time to read everything, see everything, learn everything. I am not a violin maker or dealer. Yes, I admit that my many, sometimes stupid, questions are 'shortcuts', but I have never used the knowledge I've learned here for bad intentions.
I'm sorry, but I see I annoyed you.

[Violadamore]

10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I’m sorry but there’s very little confusion. A Mirecourt trade bow is a Mirecourt trade bow, however it’s branded.

It depends on one's level of expertise.  I have no doubt that you (or the other pro dealers here) aren't confused at all, and many of the rest of us, only minimally so.  OTOH, the myriads who show up here asking about their instruments seem to be endlessly confused by misleading markings.