Help identifying / authenticating 1928 Hermann Todt violin

[NewbieCellist]

Hi! 

I recently found a neat looking violin at thrift store. It came in a nice plastic hardshell case and with a well worn octagonal silver mounted bow so for $30 i took a chance. Very good condition (no cracks i can find) except for some wear on the fingerboard and some honest playing wear. 

The label inside says Hermann Todt 1928, after some googling this seems to be a fairly well known maker making quality instruments. I was wondering if someone here could shine some light if this is actually a Hermann Todt or just a common case of a fake label? Also if anyone has some more information regarding which model/maker this fiddle is in the style of, its quality and potential value. 

Please see the attached images (including the label) and many thanks in advance for your help! 

 

Edited April 22 by NewbieCellist

[Delabo]

We will have to wait for an expert to turn up to tell you if its genuine or not, but  even if its not it looks to be a nice violin. But meanwhile perhaps you could take a picture of the bottom rib, and Is there a stamp inside anywhere? Also, what's the back length?

[GeorgeH]

Yes, the workmanship and varnish look very characteristic of an authentic Herman Todt violin, although I am surprised that there is not a brand in it. He sold various grades of instruments, and yours looks like one of the better grades.

Can you post pictures of the bow?

 

[jacobsaunders]

Todt had a shop & dealership in Markneukirchen, so you can be pretty sure, even if it’s genuine, that he didn’t “make” it himself

[Bob K]

4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Todt had a shop & dealership in Markneukirchen, so you can be pretty sure, even if it’s genuine, that he didn’t “make” it himself

From the label, possibly 'finished by'? Could that mean varnished etc. or more the equivalent of set up?

[jacobsaunders]

12 minutes ago, Bob K said:

From the label, possibly 'finished by'? Could that mean varnished etc. or more the equivalent of set up?

No, “Verfertigt” is a slightly old fashioned word for “made by”. Typically in a shop/dealership like Todt’s, the boss would be busy selling them, and a room full of artisans would be making them, or even some making them elsewhere and bringing them around

[NewbieCellist]

Happy to hear you guys think it seems like a decent instrument, that was my thought as well. 

1 hour ago, Delabo said:

We will have to wait for an expert to turn up to tell you if its genuine or not, but  even if its not it looks to be a nice violin. But meanwhile perhaps you could take a picture of the bottom rib, and Is there a stamp inside anywhere? Also, what's the back length?

Here is a picture of the bottom rib. 

I cannot find any stamps anywhere from where i can see. The back is roughly 353 mm excluding the button (neck) and 367 with. 

 

I understand Hermann Todt was a workshop with many makers but I'd love to find out more of which grade this might be, what it is based on and potential value. Seems like it was worth $30 at least. 

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Yes, the workmanship and varnish look very characteristic of an authentic Herman Todt violin, although I am surprised that there is not a brand in it. He sold various grades of instruments, and yours looks like one of the better grades.

Can you post pictures of the bow?

 

Thanks! Just curious, what makes you think it is a higher grade instrument? 

Unfortunately the bow is in a different location right now, but it didn't have a mark and has lived a hard life so i doubt it's anything exciting.

Thanks for the help everyone! 

[GeorgeH]

43 minutes ago, NewbieCellist said:

Just curious, what makes you think it is a higher grade instrument? 

The wood, the varnish, and the details of the workmanship. I am surprised that it does not have a brand, but everything else looks right.

Unlike dealers like Lowenthall and Juzek, Herman Todt was a real person who did actually make violins as well as selling workshop violins under his name, similar to E.H. Roth.

[NewbieCellist]

9 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

The wood, the varnish, and the details of the workmanship. I am surprised that it does not have a brand, but everything else looks right.

Unlike dealers like Lowenthall and Juzek, Herman Todt was a real person who did actually make violins as well as selling workshop violins under his name, similar to E.H. Roth.

Cheers! If there was a brand, where should it be located? On the inside of the violin or on the back? 

[GeorgeH]

Inside back

[NewbieCellist]

44 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Inside back

Thanks, just dubbel checked, no such mark. 

[Jwillis]

That is a hell of a $30 find 

[NewbieCellist]

On 4/23/2023 at 4:57 AM, Jwillis said:

That is a hell of a $30 find 

Yes, I'm quite pleased!  

I'm taking it to a local luthier tomorrow to hopefully get the soundpost set and also to get their opinion on the quality.

If anyone know of a place where one might find more information about the Herman Todt workshop, I'm quite curious to find out more about this instrument. My own google skills fail me. I'm also curious about the potential value (not that i plan on selling it), searching online it seems that Herman Todt violins have sold for anywhere from a few hundred bucks to several thousands. 

[______]

1 hour ago, NewbieCellist said:

Yes, I'm quite pleased!  

I'm taking it to a local luthier tomorrow to hopefully get the soundpost set and also to get their opinion on the quality.

If anyone know of a place where one might find more information about the Herman Todt workshop, I'm quite curious to find out more about this instrument. My own google skills fail me. I'm also curious about the potential value (not that i plan on selling it), searching online it seems that Herman Todt violins have sold for anywhere from a few hundred bucks to several thousands. 

Your google skill is still far much better than the person you have bought the violin from 

Btw. Let us know how does it sound like after tomorrow's set up (1st!... )

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, NewbieCellist said:

Yes, I'm quite pleased!  

I'm taking it to a local luthier tomorrow to hopefully get the soundpost set and also to get their opinion on the quality.

If anyone know of a place where one might find more information about the Herman Todt workshop, I'm quite curious to find out more about this instrument. My own google skills fail me. I'm also curious about the potential value (not that i plan on selling it), searching online it seems that Herman Todt violins have sold for anywhere from a few hundred bucks to several thousands. 

Zöbisch, in his standard work “Biographien und Erklärungen ab 1850” has a fairly detailed entry re. Todt. Page 57 he writes that old violins were part of his firms offering, and stringed instruments were made in his own workshop, but also from self-employed makers who delivered them in a finished state, which Todt just labelled up and sold. There is a Todt violin from 1910 exhibited in the Museum in Markneukirchen, which Zöbisch illustrates on page 336. The Todt in the Museum looks a couple of generations older than your fiddle, which I find hard to believe is from 1928. I expect that the label came into the violin at least half a century later than that.

 

[NewbieCellist]

19 minutes ago, ______ said:

Your google skill is still far much better than the person you have bought the violin from 

Btw. Let us know how does it sound like after tomorrow's set up (1st!... )

I'm not much of a player, but I'll give you my best guess.

 

18 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Zöbisch, in his standard work “Biographien und Erklärungen ab 1850” has a fairly detailed entry re. Todt. Page 57 he writes that old violins were part of his firms offering, and stringed instruments were made in his own workshop, but also from self-employed makers who delivered them in a finished state, which Todt just labelled up and sold. There is a Todt violin from 1910 exhibited in the Museum in Markneukirchen, which Zöbisch illustrates on page 336. The Todt in the Museum looks a couple of generations older than your fiddle, which I find hard to believe is from 1928. I expect that the label came into the violin at least half a century later than that.

 

Thanks Jacob! Interesting, just so I understand you correctly, you believe it is a later constructed Violin with a fake label? Any specific reason for this (condition, construction etc) or just a gut feeling? I know you know your german violins and I know close to nothing, so not questioning your judgement in the slightest, just curious.  

[jacobsaunders]

25 minutes ago, NewbieCellist said:

Thanks Jacob! Interesting, just so I understand you correctly, you believe it is a later constructed Violin with a fake label? Any specific reason for this (condition, construction etc) or just a gut feeling? I know you know your german violins and I know close to nothing, so not questioning your judgement in the slightest, just curious.  

The label seems suspicious to me. I don’t have much trust in labels that look like they have been treated with Nußbeize, or fig coffee stain, and I wonder if the fiddle has been made later, also the comparison with the one in the Markneukirchen museum doesn’t make me think yours is a Todt from 1928. I still congratulate, $30 was quite a bargain. Your earlier question re what a "Todt" could be worth, can’t be answered, since some were made in his firm, and others bought in from third persons, so it’s a bit like asking how long is a piece of string.

 

[NewbieCellist]

On 4/25/2023 at 8:50 PM, jacobsaunders said:

The label seems suspicious to me. I don’t have much trust in labels that look like they have been treated with Nußbeize, or fig coffee stain, and I wonder if the fiddle has been made later, also the comparison with the one in the Markneukirchen museum doesn’t make me think yours is a Todt from 1928. I still congratulate, $30 was quite a bargain. Your earlier question re what a "Todt" could be worth, can’t be answered, since some were made in his firm, and others bought in from third persons, so it’s a bit like asking how long is a piece of string.

Thanks, I think i understand!

I brought it to the local luthier yesterday for a setup and some new (old) Eudoxas i had laying around. He agreed that it was a well built violin but was inclined to agree with Jacobs assesment that it's newer than 1928, couldn't tell me much else though. 

The sound is very nice, open and warm with the Eudoxas. Plays great too so this will be my main instrument going forward. 

I took some better pics of the violin in its new and improved state

[GeorgeH]

On 4/25/2023 at 2:50 PM, jacobsaunders said:

I don’t have much trust in labels that look like they have been treated with Nußbeize, or fig coffee stain, and I wonder if the fiddle has been made later, also the comparison with the one in the Markneukirchen museum doesn’t make me think yours is a Todt from 1928.

Most of the paper from the 20th century is acidic and becomes brown and brittle over time due to the acid in the paper.

People do stain labels to make them look old, but that is because they are trying to imitate the phenomena of old paper turning brown and yellow as it ages.

I am not familiar with that label, but the lack of the Todt brand gives me more pause. Otherwise, it looks quite like Todt violins that I have seen, and very similar to a Todt workshop violin that I once owned.

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Otherwise, it looks quite like Todt violins that I have seen, and very similar to a Todt workshop violin that I once owned.

I don't think that these instruments look similar. The varnish, especially the antiquing, is quite different, the style of the purfling, especially in the corners, too, and the model of the Todt is much broader and more squarish.

At your photo the violin looks to me like a quite typical Markneukirchen from the 1920s, while the OP like being more recently made, probably using an outside mould judged by the mitred rib joints.

[Renegade]

Bubenreuth?

[GeorgeH]

47 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don't think that these instruments look similar. The varnish, especially the antiquing, is quite different, the style of the purfling, especially in the corners, too, and the model of the Todt is much broader and more squarish.

This is a Todt workshop violin, probably from the 1920's. It is different model than the OP's, and the varnish is more commercial looking. The corners are mitred, not pinched. 

I think the OP's has a nicer varnish.

[Blank face]

18 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

This is a Todt workshop violin, probably from the 1920's. It is different model than the OP's, and the varnish is more commercial looking. The corners are mitred, not pinched. 

I think the OP's has a nicer varnish.

It's undeniable that they made resp. sold different instruments, made by different shops etc. That was what Jacob described. I was just saying that both the violins aren't similar IMO.

[jacobsaunders]

30 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

This is a Todt workshop violin, probably from the 1920's. It is different model than the OP's, and the varnish is more commercial looking. The corners are mitred, not pinched. 

I think the OP's has a nicer varnish.

 

As I described above, Todt was a dealership, which both has it’s own manufacture as well as buying in instruments from 3^rd parties, as well as dealing with older instruments too, so that your attempts to define a “typical” Todt are pretty futile