It´s a Postiglione Violin?

[Oscar Stern]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:37 PM, Gabriel Vieira said:

 

Here's a picture of the scroll

That's interesting, this appears to have a grafted neck. This probably used to be a baroque violin but it was modernized by one of its previous owners. When they modernized this violin, they had to get rid of that old neck & put on a new one that was longer & angled it back. They also had to graft on the headstock which they were able to do. Whoever did it did a good job.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

5 hours ago, Oscar Stern said:

That's interesting, this appears to have a grafted neck. This probably used to be a baroque violin but it was modernized by one of its previous owners. When they modernized this violin, they had to get rid of that old neck & put on a new one that was longer & angled it back. They also had to graft on the headstock which they were able to do. Whoever did it did a good job.

I understand the assumption, but in addition to modernization there are a number of reasons why an instrument may sport a grafted neck.

Also, a number of makers (present and past) install (or installed) a graft on their new instruments as well... but I would not expect a maker would normally have set the graft as deeply as the photo indicates.

[Michael Darnton]

Try this idea: originally it was a violin with a long stop and perhaps a normal neck. That's basically unplayable for a lot of people, so some shop fit a neck keeping the traditional 3:2 relationship. Presumably at least someone tried that for a while and found it not playable (except for a giant or a violist) and then finally someone else moved the bridge north in an attempt to make a normal string length.

There are a lot of ways to solve this problem. In my shop if we see a normal neck on low f-holes we set the bridge to 195, regardless of the f location. A lot of shops feel tied to the nicks, wherever they are, resulting in unplayable instruments. And bad sounding ones, as well, since violins aren't instruments with 340mm string lengths. . .  that's something else.

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

2 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

Try this idea: originally it was a violin with a long stop and perhaps a normal neck. That's basically unplayable for a lot of people, so some shop fit a neck keeping the traditional 3:2 relationship. Presumably at least someone tried that for a while and found it not playable (except for a giant or a violist) and then finally someone else moved the bridge north in an attempt to make a normal string length.

There are a lot of ways to solve this problem. In my shop if we see a normal neck on low f-holes we set the bridge to 195, regardless of the f location. A lot of shops feel tied to the nicks, wherever they are, resulting in unplayable instruments. And bad sounding ones, as well, since violins aren't instruments with 340mm string lengths. . .  that's something else.

 

What's wrong with violins with longer string lengths?  

Viola players can pick up any length viola and play them in tune but violin players are stuck with 328mm or else they're lost.

I read some where that some teachers have their students play on mistuned instruments to force them to learn how to play in tune by adjusting their fingering. 

[Michael Darnton]

@Marty Kasprzyk  If you want a violin that sounds like a tiny viola give it a long string length. Most violinists want violins.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

6 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Marty Kasprzyk  If you want a violin that sounds like a tiny viola give it a long string length. Most violinists want violins.

Apparently all the original old Italian Baroque violins had their necks lengthened about a centimeter two centuries ago and I suspect that the 328mm string length standard was as long as could be made due to the limited strength of the violin's gut E string.

I'm merely suggesting another neck and string lengthening might be further helpful.  String technology has improved greatly and steel E string breakage is less of a problem than with the original gut E strings.

If a normal size violin body is used with a longer neck and string the sound character shouldn't change much.

But If you used the same weight strings with a higher tensions to give the same tuning it would increase the string's impedance and make it closer to the violin body's impedance.  This reduction in impedance mismatch would increase the string's vibration energy transfer to the violin body which would helpfully produce a louder sound which would improve projection.  However this increase in energy transfer would make wolf notes more likely. 

On the other hand if you wanted to keep the same string tension and loudness you must use a lighter weight string if it is longer. This would decrease the string's impedance and increase the impedance mismatch with the violin's body this in turn would make wolf notes easier to control, if they were already present with that violin.

So a longer string length could offer some acoustic advantages and could provide another MN argument topic.

A longer string length would also make accurate fingering a little easier for players having wide finger tips.

Replacing the necks of all the existing violins would further the employment of violin restorers.  

 

 

[Michael Darnton]

@Marty Kasprzyk I wasn't talking put of my ass, Marty. I have run across a few long stop violins and they virtually always sound better with normal stop and string length. Even normal good violins can be quite responsive to string length adjustments. Cellos follow the same trends.

We associate a certain sound with both and drifting from the standards drifts from those sounds. Short string has a definite sound and likewise for long.

This is an adjustment I consider with every instrument now, basically ignoring the f nicks when better results can be found otherwise.

[baroquecello]

5 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Marty Kasprzyk I wasn't talking put of my ass, Marty. I have run across a few long stop violins and they virtually always sound better with normal stop and string length. Even normal good violins can be quite responsive to string length adjustments. Cellos follow the same trends.

We associate a certain sound with both and drifting from the standards drifts from those sounds. Short string has a definite sound and likewise for long.

This is an adjustment I consider with every instrument now, basically ignoring the f nicks when better results can be found otherwise.

I'm sorry, but I think that you are forgetting that strings are manufactured to suit instruments with a common/average string string length. Hence, instruments with an average string length will sound better than those with a different string string length. What you are doing is adapting the instrument to the string. If you play on bare gut and adjust the diametre, you will see that the correlation between string length and sound is not that strong (when it is about a couple of millimetres). The problem is modern string making, that forces instuments to standard string lengths.

[Michael Darnton]

@baroquecello It doesn't matter much what's going on, exactly. The fact is that given the strings that players have to use, real changes happen when the bridge is moved and string length is changed. This is not the same change that happens when you change gauges, which would be the logical alternative in the model you suggest, I think. I suspect you're right that bare gut has a whole different set of behaviors which also would be useful, but that's not the world most players live in.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I'm not a fan of the term "string gauges" which was originally used to describe the diameter of gut strings.  Large diameter gauge gut strings have more mass per unit length (kg/m).  Many string companies have used "light", "medium" and "heavy" to suggest their appropriate string tension.   A  better description used by considerate companies is to specify the actual string tension (in Newtons or pounds)  for a given string length necessary to achieve the desired tuning.  This can then be used to calculate its mass per unit length which is an independent property of the string.

Early cellos were quite big and had long  gut strings.  The lower cello stings needed large diameter (large gauge) pure gut  to achieve low pitch notes. These large diameter strings were difficult to bow and their large diameter also made them quite stiff which prevented the even progression of string harmonic overtones of an ideally purely flexible string--they sounded unpleasant.

The later dense metal over wrapping of the gut strings increased their mass per unit length with a small diameter which allowed the same pitch notes to be played with a shorter and more flexible string which in turn allowed the cello (and basses) to be made much smaller and better sounding.

The violin was also originally designed to use gut strings but unlike the cello it has not changed.  Now that many more  strong string core materials and metal overwraps (aluminum, silver, steel, tungsten etc.) are  available I question whether or not the violin standard (often copies of famous old violins) of size, shape, string length etc. is still the optimum design for our modern string capabilities.

[scordatura]

On 4/24/2023 at 9:30 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I read some where that some teachers have their students play on mistuned instruments to force them to learn how to play in tune by adjusting their fingering. 

I saw Josef Gingold do that. He detuned his violin randomly and then demonstrated playing it in tune. This was when he was being videotaped some years ago at Indiana. That part of it did not survive the editing. You can find some of the recordings of that session on YouTube. 

[martin swan]

On 9/19/2023 at 8:30 PM, doiiels said:

To get a more accurate assessment of your violin's origin and value, especially if you believe it may be valuable due to its sound quality or historical significance, I recommend consulting with a reputable violin appraiser or luthier. They can examine the instrument in person, take a closer look at its construction, and provide you with a more precise evaluation. Additionally, they can provide insights into any historical context or provenance related to your violin.

Are you an AI chatbot?

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Are you an AI chatbot?

 

If they are, which I suspect as well,  they've been sent away.  A casino link was added to the post.