Sound Post Setting Options

[bkwood]

I tend to use a spring clamp tool to get a violin post standing before pushing it around with the traditional tool. Recently I saw a youtube video claiming to vastly improve a violin's sound by not stabbing the post (make it sound $10,000 more expensive!!), like what I generally do. I started considering that since a post is a small, carefully selected, piece of wood for transmitting vibrations, forcing the grain open to install it might not be a good idea. Why does the old tradition persist?

[MMarsden]

In my limited amateur experience, it's easier to rotate the post with the trad tool and the slit gives a visual reference for the rotation.

You can come up with rationalizations for why something should make the violin sound better or worse, but that's not evidence that it does.

[nathan slobodkin]

12 minutes ago, MMarsden said:

 

You can come up with rationalizations for why something should make the violin sound better or worse, but that's not evidence that it does.

Yup.

[FiddleDoug]

And you believe every YouTube video that you see? If you were stabbing cross grain, maybe, but when you stab with the grain, no fibers are broken, and the sound still travels from one end to the other, uninterrupted. I’ll call BS on that theory. But if they want to prove it, go for it.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

2 hours ago, bkwood said:

Why does the old tradition persist?

As I heard a good friend of mine say to an exuberant violin repair geek once when they wanted to make an "improvement" in a nice old fiddle:

"It's probably a good idea not to think you're the first genius to be inside that violin."

Some traditions are traditions because they've been proven reliable and effective.

[bkwood]

Agree with all of the above, except that parting the fibers does occur. And of course I submitted this because the claim seemed preproserous and amusing, not because I was believing BS. But, tradition aside, it does not seem installing the old way is any better, just traditional. I am only marginally a traditionalist and am happy to do things other ways when there seems no advantage to an old way. Doesn't take a lot to ruffle traditionalists feathers around here. Hee hee. But I respect many of you a great deal.

[Don Noon]

A normal stab mostly cuts the crossgrain walls of the wood, not so much the longitudinal fibers.  Maybe a few.  But so what.  Try telling the tonal difference between  a spruce post and a cut chopstick or pencil.

Personally, I find that a modified scissor-type setter works best for ME, as I am not constrained by tradition and can choose alternatives.

[The Violin Beautiful]

5 hours ago, bkwood said:

I tend to use a spring clamp tool to get a violin post standing before pushing it around with the traditional tool. Recently I saw a youtube video claiming to vastly improve a violin's sound by not stabbing the post (make it sound $10,000 more expensive!!), like what I generally do. I started considering that since a post is a small, carefully selected, piece of wood for transmitting vibrations, forcing the grain open to install it might not be a good idea. Why does the old tradition persist?

The reason this tradition (and many others in the field) exist is that it is the result of the knowledge accumulated by the best luthiers over centuries. I really like @Jeffrey Holmes’ quote, and I would add that there have been some workmen over time that have struck me as having either genius or incredible instincts, and just trying to become better by following their examples is a worthy cause.

It’s certainly worth it to examine traditions to learn why they are so valuable, but approaching them as if they are suspicious because they aren’t new leads one to view them with a biased perspective that limits the ability to appreciate their wisdom. 

[Michael Richwine]

I've been working on old violins seven days a week for years and years. Tried almost everything at first. Also saw lots of different kinds of damage that people do to violins and sound posts. They damage violins trying to shove posts around without knowing what they are doing, and they truly mangle posts, both with s-type and scissors type tools, both. Based on my own experience, I think a scissors-type tool is clumsy and hard to use without damaging the f-holes, and tends to chew up the post a lot,  where an s-tool, shaped right gives me maximum control and sensitivity and lets me place a post exactly where and how I want it with minimal manipulation once it is set.  I do them pretty much like Davide Sora does, if you want to use a video for comparison, and it's quick and accurate. Violins I see regularly for maintenance have a slit maybe 2.5mm long and half a mm wide that hangs onto the tool tight enough that you have to wiggle it  to dislodge it. I've never seen anyone use a scissor tool without marking up the post.

I've got a box full of old mangled sound posts somewhere. A good lesson in wretched excess.

[iburkard]

Once you learn the post setting waltz, it's fairly easy to set with a traditional S tool (and gauges to set yourself up for success).    

It's been very annoying working on my kid's smaller violins.  The tiny fs can be very limiting (movement, and even preventing a correct diameter post from entering).  I ended up making my own smaller setters from scrap metal. 

I'm not sure who gave the tip of covering setter handles with shrink tubing, but I've used this trick on many tools to prevent accidents.

For post stab marks, they can be removed.  To remove the marks, I like to fill the body up with water through the fs.  The water doesn't need to be in the instrument for very long, maybe a minute or so.  This process raises all of the grain and ensures a snug fit.  The post will never fall, and no one will ever be able to tell that a human set the post or built the instrument.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

9 hours ago, iburkard said:

1) I'm not sure who gave the tip of covering setter handles with shrink tubing, but I've used this trick on many tools to prevent accidents.

2) For post stab marks, they can be removed.  To remove the marks, I like to fill the body up with water through the fs.  The water doesn't need to be in the instrument for very long, maybe a minute or so.  This process raises all of the grain and ensures a snug fit.  The post will never fall, and no one will ever be able to tell that a human set the post or built the instrument.

1) I will not take credit for the idea, as I'm pretty sure others used it before me (the idea had to come to me somewhere or through someone), but I have been using (the same piece of) shrink tube on my setter for almost 40 years.  I mentioned it and provided a photo on this old thread from 2010 on soundpost setting.

link

2) Hahahahaha!  Nice image!

I do know some colleagues who like to put a small drop of water on the slot with a brush though.

[JacksonMaberry]

I know who made the video saying a post sans stab will make your violin sound better. That particular luthier is pretty well known for their brand of "oleum ophidium". A broad look at the whole brand is more than sufficient to take in exactly what's on offer, in my view.

[iburkard]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I do know some colleagues who like to put a small drop of water on the slot with a brush though.

Seems like a reasonable idea if covering setter stabs is top priority. 
 

[Dramatic Much]

Trends come and go. Try cutting 100 soundposts with any method and by the end of that you'll be better at cutting soundposts or it's time to find a new hobby. My first soundpost never fit, though I may have believed they did at the time. Cutting 5 to 10 soundposts a week means I can get the fit and tension perfect. Focus on tension and fit to change the sound with regards to the post.

An ill-fitting post will suck no matter the tool used to set it.

[Violadamore]

I set posts with an "s" setter.  My one concession to modernity is that I have the shank of my soundpost setter covered in heat shrink, instead of sewn leather.

IMHO, innovation has it's place, but it's mostly in science and engineering, not in the arts and crafts.  Every break with craft tradition that lowers the bar for skill, reduces cost, or massively speeds production inevitably produces a sleazier product, and the arts and crafts are ultimately about maximizing beauty and luxury.

[Don Noon]

I should put stab marks in my posts so it looks more traditional/professional and less sleazy. 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

33 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I should put stab marks in my posts so it looks more traditional/professional and less sleazy. 

Hahahaha!

[Evan Smith]

I set posts with an "s" setter, through the bass side f hole.

Someone peeking in might think without thinking that the post has rolled 180o and being a nice chap will roll it around to put it right,, and thereby possibly destroy the violin.

Some folks spend their time worrying about nuclear annihilation.

I have many daughters.

I am not in control.

[charliemaine]

3 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

I set posts with an "s" setter, through the bass side f hole.

Me too. 

[nathan slobodkin]

24 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

Me too. 

Why?

[charliemaine]

41 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Why?

It's how I was taught. I have no problem setting a post exactly where and how I want it from the bass side with the traditional setter. I tried the treble side and didn't like it. I can push the post into position from the bass side without the post falling off the setter.

[Evan Smith]

50 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Why?

I'll try to draw a word picture clear enough for you to see it.

1. Place a ruler on top of the fiddle with the end just behind the bridge, while lying east and west over the treble f hole.

2. Situate the ruler so the end is at the desired location of the eastern edge of the sound post behind the bridge.

3. Take note of the measurement at the edge of the f hole.

4. Place ruler inside fiddle with noted measurement in view inside f hole.

5. Place sound post in through bass f hole with top of post leaning forward, a bit excessively.

6.Touch top of post to ruler, gently push in till bottom of post just begins to touch back plate and slightly locks.

7. Pull out the ruler slightly, and touch the north side of post to visually access the distance behind the bridge foot.

8. Correct the distance by light tapping on the post with the ruler on the north south sides.

9. Return to the first position with the ruler holding the top of the post at measurement.

10.Visually inspect post to ascertain the vertical position.

11. Gently push the bottom of the post to vertical.

12. If the final position of the post is tight, fit it further back, then pull into final place, as not to mar things.

The measurement can come from wherever you want. I usually mark the post location on the outside with china marker before I start. Of course you can use the bridge foot, bass bar distance from center,,, experience. The point is that the post is placed exactly where it goes first time, and is easy to remove by resticking it and pulling it out, trimming off a bit and trying again. It takes a few seconds to place it exactly where you want it. When it is learned it is just one smooth movement.

To me it's less complicated.

But it's not better, it just works.

 

 

 

[charliemaine]

The only thing I do different than Evan, if the post is too long rather than stab it I go in from the treble hole and push with the slotted part of the setter. I avoid stabbing it too many times. Definitely works for me. If I need to rotate the post then I'll sometimes use the scissor setter, but it's easier to just remove the post and reset it. I also put a small alignment mark on the bottom center of the post as a reference point. I can tell by the mark if the post is suituated correctly or needs to be rotated. The final fit is looking through the endpin hole and using a mirror through the soundholes. My favorite necessary tools  for setting a post is Doug's luthier light and a magnifying visor. 

[Evan Smith]

16 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

 I avoid stabbing it too many times.  I also put a small alignment mark on the bottom center of the post as a reference point. I can tell by the mark if the post is suituated correctly or needs to be rotated. The final fit is looking through the endpin hole and using a mirror through the soundholes. My favorite tool  for setting a post is Doug's luthier light.

I don't put any more stab wounds in it, just reuse the same hole.

Ditto on the rest of it.

I forgot bout the peeking through the end pin and the mirrors, but a thousand times yes.

[charliemaine]

4 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

I don't put any more stab wounds in it, just reuse the same hole.

 

Didn't mean to imply that, I understood reusing the same hole. I always reuse the same hole too, never stab it in two different places. But even stabbing in the same hole too many times can ruin/split a post.