J.S. Eberle Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Please tell me if this is the wrong forum for this… Does anyone here know what the worst case scenario cost of restoration would be for this Eberle coming up at Amati? I’m assuming it’s an absolute nightmare in terms of condition. My main violin for work is an Eberle so I’m especially intrigued. https://app.amati.com/en/auction/1099-amati-specialist-29th-march/21-a-violin-by-tomaso-eberle-naples-1735 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 I'd suggest that the authenticity of this violin as the work of Tomaso Eberle should be your first concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Eberle Posted March 18 Author Report Share Posted March 18 37 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: I'd suggest that the authenticity of this violin as the work of Tomaso Eberle should be your first concern. Fair enough. I’m not an expert, but I have spent about 6 hours a day for the last 15 years looking at a real one! Even so, the similarities I see are not enough to go on. I’d love to know how the attribution at the auction was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuchanan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Oh Lord, not another Wilkanowski... @GeorgeH it's worth seeing in person - are you coming to the view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: I'd suggest that the authenticity of this violin as the work of Tomaso Eberle should be your first concern. You have doubts? 22 minutes ago, jamesbuchanan said: Oh Lord, not another Wilkanowski... Now now Jamie, don't rub it in .... a gentleman should not engage in schadenfreude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 11 hours ago, J.S. Eberle said: Please tell me if this is the wrong forum for this… Does anyone here know what the worst case scenario cost of restoration would be for this Eberle coming up at Amati? I’m assuming it’s an absolute nightmare in terms of condition. My main violin for work is an Eberle so I’m especially intrigued. https://app.amati.com/en/auction/1099-amati-specialist-29th-march/21-a-violin-by-tomaso-eberle-naples-1735 This is one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions ... It really depends how far you wish to return it to its best possible state. It seems to have a big central through patch in the bridge area - if so, then the value of the violin will always be severely limited, however nice you make it look. So then the question becomes : to what extent does the sound of the violin merit spending money on restoration? A clever restorer could make it look very nice, but the cost would be high (I would say at least 5 figures going on 20k), and there's no way of knowing if the sound and playability would merit the expenditure until you've done it all. Eberles can be very good sounding violins, they can also sound like a cheesewire stretched across a tin can and then used to disect a live cat. There are any number of halfway houses between the high figure and the doing nothing figure, you could choose any of these. If the blob in the top plate is some kind of gloup rather than new wood, then maybe it's a different story. I'm certainly going to take a look, it does appeal to me ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 12 hours ago, J.S. Eberle said: Does anyone here know what the worst case scenario cost of restoration would be for this Eberle coming up at Amati? I’m assuming it’s an absolute nightmare in terms of condition. My main violin for work is an Eberle, so I’m especially intrigued. An often overlooked point, when discussing restoration costs, is who will do the restoration? A world-class restorer is going to charge a very different rate, to your local violin shop, which will be different again, to Billy-Bob's backwood fiddle shack. The end result you get, will vary accordingly. It seems that restorers often get lumped together, as though they are all the same, and have similar abilities. This is patently not the case, and quite a few, have no place working on anything over €1,000. So it isn't simply about the amount of work required. The skill of the restorer is going to be a massive factor too. Therefore, I don't think anyone can provide an accurate price to your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said: An often overlooked point, when discussing restoration costs, is who will do the restoration? A world-class restorer is going to charge a very different rate, to your local violin shop, which will be different again, to Billy-Bob's backwood fiddle shack. The end result you get, will vary accordingly. It seems that restorers often get lumped together, as though they are all the same, and have similar abilities. This is patently not the case, and quite a few, have no place working on anything over €1,000. So it isn't simply about the amount of work required. The skill of the restorer is going to be a massive factor too. Therefore, I don't think anyone can provide an accurate price to your question. Agreed - my guesstimate was for one of the people I would entrust a job like this to, and they are expensive and overworked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 4 hours ago, martin swan said: ..........Eberles can be very good sounding violins, they can also sound like a cheesewire stretched across a tin can and then used to disect a live cat............. What lovely imagery!! IMHO, that observation could apply to the works of many, if not of most, or of all makers. Photos are great, videos are wonderful, but only playing can settle things, and even Strad and GDG reportedly had their better and worse products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 5 hours ago, jamesbuchanan said: Oh Lord, not another Wilkanowski... That one's now the world-famous Maestronet Wilkanowski. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 The main point IMO is that this is to the most part an "I want an Italian baroque violin with an untouched neck" thing, more than for the average player. Given that it is indeed dating from 1735 it's another evidence that the low angled baroque neck is a myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelbow Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Violadamore said: That one's now the world-famous Maestronet Wilkanowski. or Calacegate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 7 hours ago, martin swan said: You have doubts? I do. It seems he was born in 1727 or 1725, which would make him 8 or 10 years old, respectively, when he made this violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violadamore Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: I do. It seems he was born in 1727 or 1725, which would make him 8 or 10 years old, respectively, when he made this violin. Yup, and he didn't move to Naples until around 1750. https://amati.com/maker/eberle-tomaso https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/browse-the-archive/makers/maker/?Maker_ID=167 https://ingleshayday.com/makers/eberle-tomaso/ So much for existing scholarship. Let's trust the label for a change. ..........because, for all I can see, that smeared label date could read 1786 more easily than 1735. Aren't we having some fun auctions this month? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 2 hours ago, GeorgeH said: I do. It seems he was born in 1727 or 1725, which would make him 8 or 10 years old, respectively, when he made this violin. One should look at the label at last, or even ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Violadamore said: Aren't we having some fun auctions this month? This violin has everything @jacobsaunders loves - from a torn (insect eaten?) apocryphal label with an impossible date to f-holes apparently gnawed on by mice. And then there is the mysterious "gesu maria" label on the top block. Was this violin once owned by a Church? 5 minutes ago, Blank face said: One should look at the label at last, or even ignore it. My initial comment was based on the lot title. I had not seen the label or more aptly the remnants of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 14 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: This violin has everything @jacobsaunders loves - from a torn (insect eaten?) apocryphal label with an impossible date to f-holes apparently gnawed on by mice. And then there is the mysterious "gesu maria" label on the top block. Was this violin once owned by a Church? A Gesu e Maria label on the top block is an Eberle feature, that one would look for when trying to authenticate Eberle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.S. Eberle Posted March 19 Author Report Share Posted March 19 Thanks for the replies, everyone (especially Martin!) It’s an absolute nightmare for musicians like me to navigate the violin market. We need all the help we can get. I didn’t notice the original neck and fingerboard even though I have another instrument just like that. I hope someone does something about that, it would be a terrible shame to waste such a nice instrument on baroque playing ; ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Appleman Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 This Eberle reminds me of a Gennaro Gagliano I played on many years ago, with its original neck. We usually associate through-necks with built on the back construction, and nailed on necks with built around a mold construction. In Naples, it seems they combind BOB with nailed on necks, sort of the opposite of the Buchstetter school of building on a mold with a through neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuchanan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 7 hours ago, Blank face said: One should look at the label at last, or even ignore it Fair cop. That's not a three, that is an eight. Which makes *ahem* a bit more sense. Will double, double check tomorrow. As far as the violin goes I don't have problems. As far as my cataloguing goes however... Nub. I need more sleep and better palaeography skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 The rarity of Italian baroque violins with their original neck should command a -premium above that of the same violin grafted into modern set up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: The rarity of Italian baroque violins with their original neck should command a -premium above that of the same violin grafted into modern set up An ~1785 date wouldn’t be really “baroque” anymore (as I assumed mistakenly) but something else, Rokoko, post-classical or just late 18th century. Anyway, it would add some historical value as balance to the questionable condition of the belly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 2 minutes ago, Blank face said: An ~1785 date wouldn’t be really “baroque” anymore (as I assumed mistakenly) but something else, Rokoko, post-classical or just late 18th century. Anyway, it would add some historical value as balance to the questionable condition of the belly. Yes, of course, more what we call classical or even "baroque" transitional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank face Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 11 hours ago, GeorgeH said: My initial comment was based on the lot title. I had not seen the label or more aptly the remnants of it. The listing doesn’t show the label, it was probably asked by VdA. And mice were the obsession of a long gone bugger, not Jacob‘s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 13 hours ago, Violadamore said: Let's trust the label for a change. For me the violin is an Eberle whether it has an Eberle label or not. There are a disturbing number of violins that have correct labels which aren't original .... though that one looks promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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