Early 19th century American violin makers ( Specifically Louisiana)???

[Schwartzinc]

Is anyone familiar with knowledge surrounding early fiddle makers out of Louisiana in the early to mid 19th century? More specifically a maker named: 'Lorel Fiels' or 'Joel Fiels' ??

[Michael Richwine]

Apparently the answer is "no". I haven't found any such reference,

[Jeny Mahon]

On 3/17/2023 at 9:34 AM, Schwartzinc said:

Is anyone familiar with knowledge surrounding early fiddle makers out of Louisiana in the early to mid 19th century? More specifically a maker named: 'Lorel Fiels' or 'Joel Fiels' ??

Oh, you got those parts  I love stuff like that. I asked the seller for more photos and we got to chatting.  They asked what parts were missing and I said the ribs, and told them what to look for.  They said they'd look around and include them if found. 

I couldn't find a single reference to the maker name anywhere either, but it would be interesting just as historic evidence of a possibly unknown early 19th c. Louisiana maker.  It looked like they had at least some training.  You should get some good photos and post it here when it arrives!  I'd love to hear what the people think of it.  

[Brad Dorsey]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:34 PM, Schwartzinc said:

Is anyone familiar with…early fiddle makers out of Louisiana…?

Do you mean makers out of Louisiana or makers in Louisiana?

[Schwartzinc]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:37 PM, Jeny Mahon said:

Oh, you got those parts  I love stuff like that. I asked the seller for more photos and we got to chatting.  They asked what parts were missing and I said the ribs, and told them what to look for.  They said they'd look around and include them if found. 

I couldn't find a single reference to the maker name anywhere either, but it would be interesting just as historic evidence of a possibly unknown early 19th c. Louisiana maker.  It looked like they had at least some training.  You should get some good photos and post it here when it arrives!  I'd love to hear what the people think of it.  

Jenny, YES! Very interesting huh? Did you bid on them at all? 

[Schwartzinc]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:29 PM, Brad Dorsey said:

Do you mean makers out of Louisiana or makers in Louisiana?

Both; particularly in the 19th century.

[jacobsaunders]

19 minutes ago, Schwartzinc said:

Both; particularly in the 19th century.

there were a lot of makers "out of Louisiana"

[Schwartzinc]

In the mid 19th century? Any names you could drop?

4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

there were a lot of makers "out of Louisiana"

[iburkard]

@Jeny Mahon I'm more interested in seeing the auction listing and photos.  I managed to find the listing and posted below.

 

[Wood Butcher]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:34 PM, Schwartzinc said:

Is anyone familiar with knowledge surrounding early fiddle makers out of Louisiana in the early to mid 19th century?

 

On 3/18/2023 at 11:29 PM, Brad Dorsey said:

Do you mean makers out of Louisiana or makers in Louisiana?

 

1 hour ago, Schwartzinc said:

Both; particularly in the 19th century.

 

46 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

there were a lot of makers "out of Louisiana"

 

41 minutes ago, Schwartzinc said:

In the mid 19th century? Any names you could drop?

Well, all the makers in France, Italy, Germany, England, Austria, Poland, Bohemia, and other parts of America etc.

It would be a cripplingly long list to compile, of all the makers who worked outside of Louisiana, in the 19th century.

[iburkard]

Here we go... auction photos.  It's much better to share raw photos so that others can guess at the writing.  It seems to me that all of the writing is the same hand.  

The scroll and neck (hollow) looks like a quick shop approach, or hobbyist, cut narrow to save on wood.  And the same can be said about the neck root being a "through" style, fast shop or novice. 

I'm not sure what the piece of hardwood with a hole is, hopefully not a block repair.  This will be fun to make into something, and whatever you do to it will be an improvement over its current state.





















 

[Jeny Mahon]

7 minutes ago, iburkard said:

Here we go... auction photos.  It's much better to share raw photos so that others can guess at the writing.  It seems to me that all of the writing is the same hand.  

The scroll and neck (hollow) looks like a quick shop approach, or hobbyist.  I'm not sure what the piece of hardwood with a hole is, hopefully not a block repair.




















Hah!  I came here to post these   

Here's a couple more the seller sent to me and the listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155446732890?nma=true&si=41gIEjDW6qKiKBIysND50uQerRM%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[iburkard]

@Jeny Mahon  It's fun to see the the top is literally a plate that would lay down without flanking the neck.  This seems like fast export work to me.

[Hempel]

Someone is up to no good.  Probably the same bloke who scribbled various names and dates in another fiddle posted in this forum about a week or so ago.

The handwriting is very inconsistent with early 19th century. 

FWIW label reads "Lorel Fels."

[iburkard]

The name Lorel Fels does exist as an actual name in several states, so that's something.  I did not find any matches within newspapers.

I got a random hit here though... no idea of Louisiana is directly associated with the name below.  It's some strange database. 

[Hempel]

There was a Fels clan in Louisiana but they did not emigrate there until 1850.  Based on the handwriting alone I'm willing to put up $100 to bet what's written in the fiddle is mischief.

[iburkard]

@Hempel  My grandfather and grandmother had much nicer script than this.  I agree that the writing seems like modern cursive, dubious.  With that said, the instrument will still be fun to make something out of if one has the time.

We are lucky to have so many sources of information on hand to ID makers.  I was able to quickly find the fiddle player who owned my violin via newspapers.com.

[Schwartzinc]

2 hours ago, Hempel said:

Someone is up to no good.  Probably the same bloke who scribbled various names and dates in another fiddle posted in this forum about a week or so ago.

The handwriting is very inconsistent with early 19th century. 

FWIW label reads "Lorel Fels."

Does it look similar to that blokes?

[iburkard]

@Schwartzinc  I'm not sure if this is the post that @Hempel is referring to.  The post was made by user danrobb (new member), who is asking for IDs on many oddities.  Apparently he purchased a lot of decent junkers and is terribly setting them up one by one, and creating hype.

Old black ink usually fades to brown or lighter on paper.  Not sure if that is true on wood.  The penciled corner block inscription (small-bottom 8) is somewhat similar to your inscriptions.

 

[Violadamore]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:34 PM, Schwartzinc said:

.........out of Louisiana........

If you are a native German speaker, the idiom "aus Louisiana" would become "from Louisiana", in English. 

To everyone who bought into these scrawled-on fiddles, IMHO, you need "better palaeography skills".  

[Jeny Mahon]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

If you are a native German speaker, the idiom "aus Louisiana" would become "from Louisiana", in English. 

To everyone who bought into these scrawled-on fiddles, IMHO, you need "better palaeography skills".  

I'm not a palaeography expert by any means! 

But I do collect many other things besides fiddles. 

Last year I found this gorgeous "Autograph Book" from the late 19th century.  I took photos of every page.  Then I did a LOT of research and happily found the family it belonged to, got in touch with them, and sent it back to them.  They were thrilled, and indeed recognized some names in the book.  It had belonged to their great-great-grandmother. 

When I saw the maker's label and inscription on the plates of the OP's fiddle, I didn't have much doubt of the authenticity, because I'd seen several examples of "not fancy" 19th c. writing in that book.  Granted 90% of the writing in the book was exactly what we'd expect; script that anybody these days would would years to learn. 

Sadly, not all of us did well in handwriting class   When I was about 14 I gave up and started writing in all capitals because my handwriting is abhorrent and indecipherable otherwise!

I've attached some photos of 19th c. handwriting from the autograph book which seems similar to the inscriptions on the plates of the OP's fiddle.  The "F" in particular, with the middle downward stroke.

Bonus photo of the incredible ink drawing of Clara Wylie (the owner of the book) as a child, done by her brother Charlie.  It boggles my mind that he just sat at a table at a gathering somewhere and did this casually, in ink, with zero corrections.  I love the bird

 

[Schwartzinc]

5 minutes ago, Jeny Mahon said:

I'm not a palaeography expert by any means! 

But I do collect many other things besides fiddles. 

Last year I found this gorgeous "Autograph Book" from the late 19th century.  I took photos of every page.  Then I did a LOT of research and happily found the family it belonged to, got in touch with them, and sent it back to them.  They were thrilled, and indeed recognized some names in the book.  It had belonged to their great-great-grandmother. 

When I saw the maker's label and inscription on the plates of the OP's fiddle, I didn't have much doubt of the authenticity, because I'd seen several examples of "not fancy" 19th c. writing in that book.  Granted 90% of the writing in the book was exactly what we'd expect; script that anybody these days would would years to learn. 

Sadly, not all of us did well in handwriting class   When I was about 14 I gave up and started writing in all capitals because my handwriting is abhorrent and indecipherable otherwise!

I've attached some photos of 19th c. handwriting from the autograph book which seems similar to the inscriptions on the plates of the OP's fiddle.  The "F" in particular, with the middle downward stroke.

Bonus photo of the incredible ink drawing of Clara Wylie (the owner of the book) as a child, done by her brother Charlie.  It boggles my mind that he just sat at a table at a gathering somewhere and did this casually, in ink, with zero corrections.  I love the bird

 

Jenny smart observation; and as for the ‘Lorel Fels;’ a quick records search reveals that one Lorel Fels arrived in New Orleans during the time period in question…. A lot of hot air on the board …

[Violadamore]

52 minutes ago, Jeny Mahon said:

I'm not a palaeography expert by any means! 

But I do collect many other things besides fiddles. 

Last year I found this gorgeous "Autograph Book" from the late 19th century.  I took photos of every page.  Then I did a LOT of research and happily found the family it belonged to, got in touch with them, and sent it back to them.  They were thrilled, and indeed recognized some names in the book.  It had belonged to their great-great-grandmother. 

When I saw the maker's label and inscription on the plates of the OP's fiddle, I didn't have much doubt of the authenticity, because I'd seen several examples of "not fancy" 19th c. writing in that book.  Granted 90% of the writing in the book was exactly what we'd expect; script that anybody these days would would years to learn. 

Sadly, not all of us did well in handwriting class   When I was about 14 I gave up and started writing in all capitals because my handwriting is abhorrent and indecipherable otherwise!

I've attached some photos of 19th c. handwriting from the autograph book which seems similar to the inscriptions on the plates of the OP's fiddle.  The "F" in particular, with the middle downward stroke.

Bonus photo of the incredible ink drawing of Clara Wylie (the owner of the book) as a child, done by her brother Charlie.  It boggles my mind that he just sat at a table at a gathering somewhere and did this casually, in ink, with zero corrections.  I love the bird

 

Congrats on the scrumptious book.  I'll consider this, but remember that there's some national variations in handwriting styles. 

[Jeny Mahon]

34 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Congrats on the scrumptious book.  I'll consider this, but remember that there's some national variations in handwriting styles. 

It is sooo beautiful!  I know there's a lot like it out there but this was the first one I saw in person.  I'm happy I was able to send it back to the family!  SO much gorgeous penmanship but...that portrait just killed me   I will upload all the photos to dropbox and send you a link.  Aside from the lovely script, there are a lot of wonderful Victorian sentiments, including some at seem to indicate our Clara had a few "adventures" in her life that didn't work out 

 

[MikeC]

6 hours ago, Jeny Mahon said:

It is sooo beautiful!  I know there's a lot like it out there but this was the first one I saw in person.  I'm happy I was able to send it back to the family!  SO much gorgeous penmanship but...that portrait just killed me   I will upload all the photos to dropbox and send you a link.  Aside from the lovely script, there are a lot of wonderful Victorian sentiments, including some at seem to indicate our Clara had a few "adventures" in her life that didn't work out 

 

could you send me a link also?  I am a but of an amateur calligrapher and would love to see examples of the old handwriting.