GerardM Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Here’s a beaten up violin I was given. I think it’s spirit varnish I put a pin head drop of alcohol on and the varnish dissolved. As can be seen it’s very grubby how should I go about cleaning this, and hopefully have a nice looking violin. As can be seen it’s not an expensive violin ( if it was I wouldn’t go near it ) but something to practice on. I thank you for any advice given. Take care G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I would glue the crack beneath the chin-rest first, then clean it with a rag with a little “Super Nico” on it, with some Wiener Kalk, whatever that is called in English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Vienna Chalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 23 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: I would glue the crack beneath the chin-rest first, then clean it with a rag with a little “Super Nico” on it, with some Wiener Kalk, whatever that is called in English In the US, Wiener Caulk can be a condom, a small cork, a clothespin, a zip-tie, "cling film", a hose clamp, or super-glue. Kinda depends on what's available, and the urgency of the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: …Wiener Kalk, whatever that is called in English Assuming that “wiener kalk” is Vienna chalk, and not a condom, that means that it is a fine abrasive powder. How does one go about using it so as to abrade away the dirt but not the varnish? Perhaps it used after all the dirt has been removed with Super Nico? But this would mean that the varnish is abraded by the chalk everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 2 hours ago, David Burgess said: In the US, Wiener Caulk can be a condom, a small cork, a clothespin, a zip-tie, "cling film", a hose clamp, or super-glue. Kinda depends on what's available, and the urgency of the situation. How urgent does one have to be to use a hose clamp instead of a condom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Allen Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 3 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said: How urgent does one have to be to use a hose clamp instead of a condom? You obviously haven't lived enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 "Here’s a beaten up violin I was given. I think it’s spirit varnish I put a pin head drop of alcohol on and the varnish dissolved. As can be seen it’s very grubby how should I go about cleaning this, and hopefully have a nice looking violin. As can be seen it’s not an expensive violin..." It depends... Is the "dirt "ground into the varnish or does it sit above it? First, you'll have to determine what to do with that open crack (as Jacob pointed out) and the damage at the edge. In general, when cleaning a fiddle, I will start with the least invasive solvent, test a small area to make sure it's only removing what I want it to, and move up the list carefully if required (testing small areas as I go, starting with soft cloth dampened with distilled or deionized water for example, moving to qtips for the tighter areas). Warning; even these H2O solvents can harm some finishes. If the "dirt" has a rosin component, H2O solvents may not get you far, but if the dirt is water soluble, you may see results. Artificial spit is available through some conservation supply companies (no, I'm not joking). The enzymes may have a positive effect. There are also some soaps that, used correctly, can be effective and relatively safe for most varnishes and effective for rosin buildup. Vulpex is one (I believe it was formulated for use in cleaning parchment and leather)... It is not used "straight", but rather mixed with stoddard solvent or high grade mineral spirits at about 1 part soap to 20 parts solvent, or distilled water (similar dilution... but that soap mixed with water is more aggressive, so I avoid usually rely on stoddard or mineral spirits). Again, test in a small area before proceeding. If you use Vulpex, I'd advise using nitrile gloves (it's on the alkaline side of things) and neutralizing the surface by wiping with clean cloth damped with distilled water (as you'll already have tested distilled water, right?) to neutralize any soap left on the surface immediately following the cleaning of a section. I'd also recommend good ventilation or other safety devices if mixing with mineral spirits (solvents aren't great for you). Going up the ladder from there I'd not recommend for a novice... and if anything you try softens the varnish on the test area, discontinue with that substance. Good luck, tread carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted March 16 Author Report Share Posted March 16 4 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said: "Here’s a beaten up violin I was given. I think it’s spirit varnish I put a pin head drop of alcohol on and the varnish dissolved. As can be seen it’s very grubby how should I go about cleaning this, and hopefully have a nice looking violin. As can be seen it’s not an expensive violin..." It depends... Is the "dirt "ground into the varnish or does it sit above it? First, you'll have to determine what to do with that open crack (as Jacob pointed out) and the damage at the edge. In general, when cleaning a fiddle, I will start with the least invasive solvent, test a small area to make sure it's only removing what I want it to, and move up the list carefully if required (testing small areas as I go, starting with soft cloth dampened with distilled or deionized water for example, moving to qtips for the tighter areas). Warning; even these H2O solvents can harm some finishes. If the "dirt" has a rosin component, H2O solvents may not get you far, but if the dirt is water soluble, you may see results. Artificial spit is available through some conservation supply companies (no, I'm not joking). The enzymes may have a positive effect. There are also some soaps that, used correctly, can be effective and relatively safe for most varnishes and effective for rosin buildup. Vulpex is one (I believe it was formulated for use in cleaning parchment and leather)... It is not used "straight", but rather mixed with stoddard solvent or high grade mineral spirits at about 1 part soap to 20 parts solvent, or distilled water (similar dilution... but that soap mixed with water is more aggressive, so I avoid usually rely on stoddard or mineral spirits). Again, test in a small area before proceeding. If you use Vulpex, I'd advise using nitrile gloves (it's on the alkaline side of things) and neutralizing the surface by wiping with clean cloth damped with distilled water (as you'll already have tested distilled water, right?) to neutralize any soap left on the surface immediately following the cleaning of a section. I'd also recommend good ventilation or other safety devices if mixing with mineral spirits (solvents aren't great for you). Going up the ladder from there I'd not recommend for a novice... and if anything you try softens the varnish on the test area, discontinue with that substance. Good luck, tread carefully. Thank you Jeffrey plenty of information to practice with. The crack that Jacob mentioned is on my list of things to do. The pegbox was snapped off someone re glued and nailed it back onto the neck, plus a number of splits in the sides. So for extra practice I removed the neck and will make a new one. See the picture of the bass bar as I have the violin in bits would it improve things sound wise to fit a better profiled one. I don’t expect to make a silk purse from a sows ear. Regarding the Vienna chalk and super niko method, after niko cleaning is the chalk sprinkled on and polished off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted March 16 Author Report Share Posted March 16 5 hours ago, Nick Allen said: You obviously haven't lived enough... I was concerned thinking I would have to wear the condom cover myself with chalk and roll around the floor with the violin, while super Niko took pictures. I could however blackmail people, if they don’t give me money I will send the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 4 hours ago, GerardM said: Thank you Jeffrey plenty of information to practice with. The crack that Jacob mentioned is on my list of things to do. The pegbox was snapped off someone re glued and nailed it back onto the neck, plus a number of splits in the sides. So for extra practice I removed the neck and will make a new one. See the picture of the bass bar as I have the violin in bits would it improve things sound wise to fit a better profiled one. I don’t expect to make a silk purse from a sows ear. Regarding the Vienna chalk and super niko method, after niko cleaning is the chalk sprinkled on and polished off. No, I take a rag (bit of old T shirt or similar), put a little Super Nico on it, and dob it in a marmalade glass lid with wiener kalk. The super nico softens the dirt, and the Wiener kalk polishes it up. Wipe it off afterwards with a kitchen towel (paper). Cleaning is always a choice between a solvent and an abrasive or a bit of both. While Jeffrey is quite right with his precautions, this is a method that will work on a “usual” without the slightest problem. Do the crack first, ‘cos glue doesn’t work so well if you get cleaner in the crack. I wouldn’t bother to remove the bar, since it seems perfectly alright, and would be a waste of time. Making a new scroll/neck seems unnecessary too, but you haven’t shown us the damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted March 16 Author Report Share Posted March 16 42 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: No, I take a rag (bit of old T shirt or similar), put a little Super Nico on it, and dob it in a marmalade glass lid with wiener kalk. The super nico softens the dirt, and the Wiener kalk polishes it up. Wipe it off afterwards with a kitchen towel (paper). Cleaning is always a choice between a solvent and an abrasive or a bit of both. While Jeffrey is quite right with his precautions, this is a method that will work on a “usual” without the slightest problem. Do the crack first, ‘cos glue doesn’t work so well if you get cleaner in the crack. I wouldn’t bother to remove the bar, since it seems perfectly alright, and would be a waste of time. Making a new scroll/neck seems unnecessary too, but you haven’t shown us the damage I don’t know what type of glue was used on the repaired joint, and because of the splits around the peg holes decided to replace the neck. I had concerns about the joint letting go under tension and causing more damage to the violin and possibly the person playing it. Anyway let me know your opinion Jacob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan slobodkin Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 Does super Niko go bad with time? I have a quart bottle of the stuff that seems to be developing a layer of sedimentary rock at the bottom. Shaking does not affect this much and even stirring with a stick doesn't really get it back into suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 29 minutes ago, GerardM said: I don’t know what type of glue was used on the repaired joint, and because of the splits around the peg holes decided to replace the neck. I had concerns about the joint letting go under tension and causing more damage to the violin and possibly the person playing it. Anyway let me know your opinion Jacob. Yes, it seems that you can either do a neck graft, or put it in the bin 25 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said: Does super Niko go bad with time? I have a quart bottle of the stuff that seems to be developing a layer of sedimentary rock at the bottom. Shaking does not affect this much and even stirring with a stick doesn't really get it back into suspension. It would be nice to know what solvent they used. I tried warming it in a water bath with not much success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: No, I take a rag (bit of old T shirt or similar), put a little Super Nico on it, and dob it in a marmalade glass lid with wiener kalk. There was a product marketed by a German company as "Luthiers polish" in the states about 25 years ago which I felt did a better job than Super Niko does... and left no white residue (which I've seen with Niko). it's not on the market any longer, but I wish I knew the formula for that. A few colleagues have tried to reproduce it but it's never quite "right". Shar made a version, but same problem. To bad. Handy for less expensive instruments and very good for specific limited uses on expensive ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 34 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said: There was a product marketed by a German company as "Luthiers polish" in the states about 25 years ago which I felt did a better job than Super Niko does... and left no white residue (which I've seen with Niko). it's not on the market any longer, but I wish I knew the formula for that. A few colleagues have tried to reproduce it but it's never quite "right". Shar made a version, but same problem. To bad. Handy for less expensive instruments and very good for specific limited uses on expensive ones. Yeah, super nico isn’t perfect, which is why it is important to wipe any residue off with a paper towel afterwards. The OP question was about cleaning a “usual”, so there is a limit to how long one can take, and how much one can afford a nervous breakdown before one does anything. Hill polish can be used as an alternative to super nico (with the Wiener Kalk) and I posted the recipe for that on these fora before (can again if anyone wants), but I prefer super nico Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerardM Posted March 16 Author Report Share Posted March 16 Thanks everyone for your input. Plenty of great suggestions for this project, let’s hope I manage to put it to good use. Will post pictures of the finished violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzopiano Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 Is ground pumice (Bimsmehl in German) an alternative to Wiener Kalk (ground Dolomite rock) for cleaning a “usual”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan slobodkin Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 1 hour ago, mezzopiano said: Is ground pumice (Bimsmehl in German) an alternative to Wiener Kalk (ground Dolomite rock) for cleaning a “usual”? Pumice would be considerably more aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzopiano Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 Is that because of the material or the particle size? I'm asking because I happen to have some ground pumice with 0-40µm particle size and a "usual" to clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strad O Various Jr. Posted March 16 Report Share Posted March 16 you could try rottenstone, its about twice as fine as pumice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Allen Posted March 17 Report Share Posted March 17 On 3/16/2023 at 8:20 AM, nathan slobodkin said: Does super Niko go bad with time? I have a quart bottle of the stuff that seems to be developing a layer of sedimentary rock at the bottom. Shaking does not affect this much and even stirring with a stick doesn't really get it back into suspension. No. Where I work we keep a steel nut at the bottom and use is as an agitator to mix everything up. It'll get really hard and gummy if you leave it sit for a long time, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan slobodkin Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 2 hours ago, Nick Allen said: No. Where I work we keep a steel nut at the bottom and use is as an agitator to mix everything up. It'll get really hard and gummy if you leave it sit for a long time, though. Smart. I'll try that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzopiano Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 (edited) I think I'll go for the proven method of using Vienna Chalk (funny that it's translated like that, since "Wiener" in "Wiener Kalk" does not mean "from Vienna" Edited: see below) and Super Nikco. Didn't realise Super Nikco was readily available in Europe. It's a bit of a waste that it only comes in 500ml bottles, but hey, it also works for polishing pianos... Edited March 18 by mezzopiano correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 14 minutes ago, mezzopiano said: since "Wiener" in "Wiener Kalk" does not mean "from Vienna" of course it does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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