Violin ID please

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I'm seeing the C bout rib feathered in not mitered  which would be Mittenwald style, of course the corner blocks aren't. As to the scroll, it has a delta but the carving appears to go completely in, how is that Markneukirchen style

I see the scroll geometry, the wonky chamfers and irregular eye clearly in the Vogtland realm, while the depth of fluting can be easily altered. But as it is consensus, we can just wait if there will be more clues when it will be opened.

[Renegade]

I didn't follow the whole thread, but... if, for example, there is no need to repair the violin that requires opening, checking 'what is this violin' justifies opening it?

 

[Aurella]

Just stick an endoscope in to have a look around, much easier.

[jacobsaunders]

2 hours ago, Spongebob said:

I didn't follow the whole thread, but... if, for example, there is no need to repair the violin that requires opening, checking 'what is this violin' justifies opening it?

 

The suggestion was that it will need opening anyway to repair the soundpost crack

[Blank face]

42 minutes ago, Aurella said:

Just stick an endoscope in to have a look around, much easier.

An endoscope won’t give you a birdsview of corner blocks and rib joints, unfortunately.

[Aurella]

22 hours ago, Blank face said:

An endoscope won’t give you a birdsview of corner blocks and rib joints, unfortunately.

Ah true

[______]

On 2/26/2023 at 2:53 PM, Blank face said:

I see the scroll geometry, the wonky chamfers and irregular eye clearly in the Vogtland realm, while the depth of fluting can be easily altered. But as it is consensus, we can just wait if there will be more clues when it will be opened.

 

On 2/26/2023 at 7:07 PM, jacobsaunders said:

The suggestion was that it will need opening anyway to repair the soundpost crack

Since back plate was partially off the ribs I decided to show corners from that side.

There is a recess in a block (at least one).

I do not know if it's clearly visible but it seems those blocks are made of two different kinds od wood - one that fill corners (where recess occurs) and another one that cover that area from the inside and look to be a corner blocks imitation.

Strange.

Linings are not let into those blocks.

[jacobsaunders]

11 minutes ago, ______ said:

 

Since back plate was partially off the ribs I decided to show corners from that side.

There is a recess in a block (at least one).

I do not know if it's clearly visible but it seems those blocks are made of two different kinds od wood - one that fill corners (where recess occurs) and another one that cover that area from the inside and look to be a corner blocks imitation.

Strange.

Linings are not let into those blocks.

so you can see that they were blocks inserted AFTER the fact (i.e. not inside mould)

[______]

23 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

so you can see that they were blocks inserted AFTER the fact (i.e. not inside mould)

Yes, it makes sense perfectly.

[tetler]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

so you can see that they were blocks inserted AFTER the fact (i.e. not inside mould)

So outside mold then? Post 1900 usual? 

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, tetler said:

So outside mold then? Post 1900 usual? 

or BOB

[Blank face]

Very difficult to tell for sure, but the ribs still look like set with a mitre, not pinched together, and there’s no glue residue in the gap between block and plate. So they might have used some outside mould. 

[tetler]

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

or BOB

My understanding of BOB construction method, mostly based on your posts, is that the ribs are pinched/glued together at the corner before they are cut back. Therefore, the ribs must be practically parallel at the extreme end of the corner. How can the op violin be built on back when the ribs meet at such a wide angle? 

[Renegade]

9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

or BOB

With BOB, wouldn't there be more glue that would firmly connect the ribs first, and then gluing the blocks together? This work looks very clean, there is usually a lot of glue on BOB. Am I right?

[jacobsaunders]

57 minutes ago, tetler said:

My understanding of BOB construction method, mostly based on your posts, is that the ribs are pinched/glued together at the corner before they are cut back. Therefore, the ribs must be practically parallel at the extreme end of the corner. How can the op violin be built on back when the ribs meet at such a wide angle? 

one would have to rasp a lot of excess corner off

[tetler]

48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

one would have to rasp a lot of excess corner off

Sure, but my point is that to get the inside rib corner angle of the OP violin, you would have to rasp off the entire glue joint and more (red line). That would lead to a gap between the ribs, like in C. If you stop at the green line, you get B, which is a sharper angle than the OP violin. The corners of the OP violin have angles that look more like D, but that would not be possible with pinched ribs.

[jacobsaunders]

14 minutes ago, tetler said:

Sure, but my point is that to get the inside rib corner angle of the OP violin, you would have to rasp off the entire glue joint and more (red line). That would lead to a gap between the ribs, like in C. If you stop at the green line, you get B, which is a sharper angle than the OP violin. The corners of the OP violin have angles that look more like D, but that would not be possible with pinched ribs.

I get your point, still agree with BF that it is difficult to tell. One can "build on the back" without leaving the rib ends pinched looking

[tetler]

24 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I get your point, still agree with BF that it is difficult to tell. One can "build on the back" without leaving the rib ends pinched looking

I agree when looking at the joint from the outside. The rib ends can be sort of chamfered to make the rib ends look thinner, as you have said before. This would also widen the angle at the tip of the rib corner, making it look more like built with a mold.

However, if you look at the INSIDE of the joint, I'm having a hard time picturing how you can pinch ribs to get a result like D (OP violin). If you have an explanation, I'm all ears!

Did some "schools" or makers also build on the back without pinching the ribs? If so, I guess the OP violin could be built on back.

[Blank face]

Especially in the 20th century there existed a lot of ways to make a rib construction look like something else. But I guess that the violin is originating from the Vogtland region anyway.

[tetler]

5 hours ago, Blank face said:

Especially in the 20th century there existed a lot of ways to make a rib construction look like something else. But I guess that the violin is originating from the Vogtland region anyway.

Are you aware of a BOB method where the ribs are not pinched?

 

[martin swan]

6 minutes ago, tetler said:

Are you aware of a BOB method where the ribs are not pinched?

 

I think there are quite a lot of regional styles that build on the back but using mitre joints.

Obviously Dutch and Vieux Paris where the ribs are set into a channel ...

I believe most earlier Neapolitan instruments, numerous Central Italians, many British instruments of the late 18th century. 

Probably there are others.

[Blank face]

15 minutes ago, tetler said:

Are you aware of a BOB method where the ribs are not pinched?

 

If one reduces the question to "Vogtlands built on the back", than no. But there are ways to disguise it, for example planing one rib very thin at the end would make them look like mitred from the outside.

At the OP it's by the actual photos not to tell for sure, as I wrote before.

[______]

Don't want to quote everyone here, just want you to know you guys are amazing.

I am grateful to all of you and I wish I could have some beer at least on me with you one day.

[Guido]

Maybe you try reading the label on the top block for a starting hypothesis.