Possible Salzkammergut violin? Unlabelled

[antoneeyuh]

Hi there! I recently purchased a well-played violin with a rich, crisp sound because I fell in love with it. Approximate age is 1850-1890s, but it is unlabelled. After my own research, I believe it to be from the Salzkammergut region, however, it does have inlaid purfling. I did notice that there seems to be some evidence of painted purfling as well, but it appears to be painted over top parts of the inlaid purfling, so I'm at a loss of why that would be.

The F-holes are quite large at the bottom and very serpentine in shape. They appear to be hand carved since they don't seem very uniform with each other. They are also very close to the edge of the instrument.

There is no label or evidence of there ever being one (no old glue or anything) but it does have the initials "CE" carved into the scroll. The scroll is grafted and pegbox repaired. Overall appearance wise, it seems very well played by a skilled player with a lot of ware around the body where a person would often be in 5th position and beyond.

To me, it sounds incredible and it is a joy to play. I'm not very skilled but it has made me play several hours per day the last few weeks just because of how enjoyable it is. I'm not looking to sell it. I am just looking for the provenance of it. I don't care if it's worth a lot or nothing at all because the joy I get from it is worth more than money can buy. 

Any thoughts as to its origin? Thank you so much for any information you might have.

- Antonia 

 

[Delabo]

I am not an expert, and am thinking out loud. It looks a nice violin with its original varnish. If it was mine I would hope for it to be placed in the first half of the nineteenth century. It will be interesting to see what the experts say.

[antoneeyuh]

2 hours ago, Delabo said:

I am not an expert, and am thinking out loud. It looks a nice violin with its original varnish. If it was mine I would hope for it to be placed in the first half of the nineteenth century. It will be interesting to see what the experts say.

Thank you! Yes, I do believe that the varnish is original or at least very old if it ever was re-varnished. 

[Blank face]

Looks to me more like a nice one from the Markneukirchen region, a bit earlier than you thought. Maybe ca 1800. They made the arches at the pegbox rear, too. Salzkammergut would be with inked purfling as you mentioned. 

[GeorgeH]

@antoneeyuh, glad you found a violin that delights you to play! The best violin is the one that you want to play. Thank you for posting pictures. 

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

a bit earlier than you thought. Maybe ca 1800.

It looks like Markneukirchen BoB to me, too, but why do you think it is early 1800's, and not later?

The scroll does not look like it is original to me. The purfling in one of the corners pictured looks like a badly hacked repair, and the "antiquing" is extreme. I wonder why the square was cut out of the back of the pegbox? Maybe to hang the fiddle on a nail?

[Blank face]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

@antoneeyuh, glad you found a violin that delights you to play! The best violin is the one that you want to play. Thank you for posting pictures. 

It looks like Markneukirchen BoB to me, too, but why do you think it is early 1800's, and not later?

The scroll does not look like it is original to me. The purfling in one of the corners pictured looks like a badly hacked repair, and the "antiquing" is extreme. I wonder why the square was cut out of the back of the pegbox? Maybe to hang the fiddle on a nail?

The model, craftmanship and varnish are in accordance with this period. Such bright and comparatively soft varnishes are easily worn, and if polished with a lot of dirt still at it they would look typically like the OP. The infamous screwdiver antiquing is trying to imitate such a picture, but here it seems to be all natural to me.

For which reason the scroll doesn't appear to be original? For me it's exactly what I would expect at such an instrument. For which reason the squarish inlay was added can be a matter of speculation only, but maybe somebody tried to drill out the peg and didn't stop early enough.

[GeorgeH]

42 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The model, craftmanship and varnish are in accordance with this period. Such bright and comparatively soft varnishes are easily worn, and if polished with a lot of dirt still at it they would look typically like the OP. The infamous screwdiver antiquing is trying to imitate such a picture, but here it seems to be all natural to me.

For which reason the scroll doesn't appear to be original? For me it's exactly what I would expect at such an instrument. For which reason the squarish inlay was added can be a matter of speculation only, but maybe somebody tried to drill out the peg and didn't stop early enough.

The varnish on the volute looks different than the varnish on the violin, and the back of the scroll looks like it once had a "shield" that may have been modified to remove the original markings and the "CE" added. Were makers using shields on the back of scrolls in the early 1800s?

It would be interesting to know if the square goes all the way through to the pegbox. Interesting to note the pin used to reinforce the neck graft.

In regards to the "antiquing," how could natural wear like that ever occur under the strings like that? I understand damage under the strings occuring from bridges snapping occasionally, and wear from moving the feet around, but how do you get all those deep dents and nicks concentrated under the strings without it being deliberate?

The wear on the edge of the treble C-bout does indicate a fiddle that was played hard, although I would doubt that a skilled classical player would cause that kind of wear. 
 

[Blank face]

23 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

In regards to the "antiquing," how could natural wear like that ever occur under the strings like that?

It doesn't look like wear to me, but as if somebody tried to remove resin residues with an inedaquate tool. Happens very often, unfortunately.

23 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

the back of the scroll looks like it once had a "shield" that may have been modified to remove the original markings and the "CE" added. Were makers using shields on the back of scrolls in the early 1800s?

This flat lower rear pegbox area with two arches at the top is a very common feature seen at 18th/early 19th century Salzkammergut and Saxon instruments. I guess we had discussed it very often in the past, it has nothing to do (or at least very remotely only) with the "shield" at much later trade instruments.

[GeorgeH]

17 minutes ago, Blank face said:

This flat lower rear pegbox area with two arches at the top is a very common feature seen at 18th/early 19th century Salzkammergut and Saxon instruments.

Thanks, Blank face! Always a good day when I learn something new! 

[antoneeyuh]

3 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

The wear on the edge of the treble C-bout does indicate a fiddle that was played hard, although I would doubt that a skilled classical player would cause that kind of wear. 

I was thinking more of a skilled itinerant player, such as a Romani person from Bohemia. It appears to be a fiddler's instrument to me, given its state. I can imagine it played around a camp fire but not sure if any of the damage could be caused by sparks. Thank you for the reply!

[nathan slobodkin]

Interesting question about the deep nicks and dents under the strings below the bridge. What would cause that? It looks too old and not quite right for tuner damage.

[Andreas Preuss]

I’d rather think in the direction of old Mirecourt.

22 hours ago, antoneeyuh said:

Hi there! I recently purchased a well-played violin with a rich, crisp sound because I fell in love with it. Approximate age is 1850-1890s, but it is unlabelled. After my own research, I believe it to be from the Salzkammergut region, however, it does have inlaid purfling. I did notice that there seems to be some evidence of painted purfling as well, but it appears to be painted over top parts of the inlaid purfling, so I'm at a loss of why that would be.

The F-holes are quite large at the bottom and very serpentine in shape. They appear to be hand carved since they don't seem very uniform with each other. They are also very close to the edge of the instrument.

There is no label or evidence of there ever being one (no old glue or anything) but it does have the initials "CE" carved into the scroll. The scroll is grafted and pegbox repaired. Overall appearance wise, it seems very well played by a skilled player with a lot of ware around the body where a person would often be in 5th position and beyond.

To me, it sounds incredible and it is a joy to play. I'm not very skilled but it has made me play several hours per day the last few weeks just because of how enjoyable it is. I'm not looking to sell it. I am just looking for the provenance of it. I don't care if it's worth a lot or nothing at all because the joy I get from it is worth more than money can buy. 

Any thoughts as to its origin? Thank you so much for any information you might have.

- Antonia 

 

1. How large are the corner blocks?

2. Is the back button original?

3. How precisely is the back joint in the center. (When measuring the upper, center, and lower width?

 

 

[Blank face]

18 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I’d rather think in the direction of old Mirecourt

Definitely not with this scroll.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Interesting question about the deep nicks and dents under the strings below the bridge. What would cause that? It looks too old and not quite right for tuner damage.

As I said, most likely they are from scraping off resin residue.

[Guido]

The odds are in favour of Saxony (and it fits quite well); but would Dutch be a remote possibility?

[Andreas Preuss]

12 hours ago, Blank face said:

Definitely not with this scroll.

Here is a similar scroll by Leopold  Renaudin. Longish pattern and narrow throat. The volute is different. 

The violin has as well the f holes placed very close to the border, a feature seen often on French instruments which were not modeled on Strad.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

21 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Here is a similar scroll by Leopold  Renaudin. Longish pattern and narrow throat. The volute is different. 

The violin has as well the f holes placed very close to the border, a feature seen often on French instruments which were not modeled on Strad.

that scroll doesn't look remotely similar

[Blank face]

30 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Here is a similar scroll by Leopold  Renaudin. Longish pattern and narrow throat. The volute is different. 

The violin has as well the f holes placed very close to the border, a feature seen often on French instruments which were not modeled on Strad.

None of them, nor Dutch, Flemish, Spanish, English etc. has the flat area with two arches on top. This is exclusively found in the region between Saxony, West Bohemia (Kastl for example) and Salzkammergut. That’s one of the the most easily to identify features.

The proportions of volute and pegbox from the Renaudin, as well as the geometry of the volute are a very different thing.

The ff with rolled on long wings and large lower holes look also quite typical, as well as the varnish, woods and construction method.

No idea why it shouldn‘t be the most obvious, stretching all evidence as wide as possible?

 

[Andreas Preuss]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

None of them, nor Dutch, Flemish, Spanish, English etc. has the flat area with two arches on top.

You mean the back of the volute?

I wouldn’t go for this single feature.

That’s why I asked the OP my questions. If you find for example pretty broad corner blocks, you can be almost certain that it is not from Saxony/Bohemia. 

[Blank face]

26 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

You mean the back of the volute?

I wouldn’t go for this single feature.

That’s why I asked the OP my questions. If you find for example pretty broad corner blocks, you can be almost certain that it is not from Saxony/Bohemia. 

Sorry, but if you don’t read my posts completely it is a hopeless argument.

[GeorgeH]

44 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

If you find for example pretty broad corner blocks, you can be almost certain that it is not from Saxony/Bohemia. 

Regardless of the block size, the seams at the corners of rib joins indicate BoB construction, which also point away from French origin.

[Andreas Preuss]

31 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Regardless of the block size, the seams at the corners of rib joins indicate BoB construction, which also point away from French origin.

The corner rib joins look like a black line to me, so that you can’t see they way they are joined together. 

[Andreas Preuss]

22 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Sorry, but if you don’t read my posts completely it is a hopeless argument.

My point s that saying for the flatted back of the scroll with two ornamental arches is ‘exclusively found in the region between Saxony, West Bohemia and Salzkammergut’ is IMO a bit risky. Early Makers in Poland made this too, Groblicz or Dankwart.

But ok let’s look at the rest. 

I don’t like the way the corners are made, a kind of Landolfi style, short and quickly turned around. 

Inlay work of most Markneukirchen instruments is cleaner and closer to the edge.

Yellow brittle varnish is also typical for many old Mirecourt instruments making naturally this wear pattern. 

You find also in Mirecourt instruments those ‘hybrid Stainer’ f-holes.

Then I find oversized f-nicks also more often in Mirecourt work than in Markneukirchen.

[reg]

Is Jacob on vacation?

[GeorgeH]

30 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

The corner rib joins look like a black line to me, so that you can’t see they way they are joined together. 

This looks BoB to me. The other views don't show the seams, but otherwise they look pinched to me.