Individuals buying at auction

[Cincitaipei]

I was looking at the T2 auction which has a couple of days left on it. As background, I have two kids playing violin and we have several good Chinese violins. We haven't crosses into the $2000+ range. 

I was just curious if anyone on here has experience buying personal use violins at auction. In the T2 auction there's a 1923 Albert Deblaye currently at $1300, a Joseph Sneider 19th c. violin at $2000, what looks like a $2000 2008 Italian violin, etc. These look playable. I guess I am asking several questions at once:

1. How many of you have bought <$3500 auction violins and what's your experience been with that? 

2. Have you gotten a total dog buying like this?

3. What don't I know that I should know? Is there a primer for buying at auction?

[matesic]

double post

[matesic]

39 minutes ago, matesic said:

You'll get plenty of advice not to do it so I'll get my retaliation in first. Six years ago I decided to spend part of my expendable savings on a super-duper (by my standards) violin and a smaller part dabbling in the auction market. It's the smaller part that's given me much fun and satisfaction, not to say two instruments that I prefer to the super-duper. Neither of them cost anything like $3500 and yes, there have been a few scruffy mongrels. My only rules were to check out all the relevant sources, be very careful regarding condition and set a firm "no play, no bid" threshold. Mine is £500 and my biggest mistake occurred the only time I exceeded it.

 

[GeorgeH]

2 hours ago, Cincitaipei said:

1. How many of you have bought <$3500 auction violins and what's your experience been with that? 

I have never purchased a violin from T2, but I have sold a few violin and bows in it, some very very good and one very not so good. 

2 hours ago, Cincitaipei said:

2. Have you gotten a total dog buying like this?

No, but it would not be hard to do, particularly if you're choosing violins based on them "looking playable."

2 hours ago, Cincitaipei said:

3. What don't I know that I should know? Is there a primer for buying at auction?

Buying at an auction is a gamble. The less you know, the higher your risk is of losing your bet. And do a search on "the winner's curse."

I think you'd be better served by going to a good dealer. And this is important: Buying a violin together with your child can be an unforgettably joyful experience and a priceless memory for both of you. 

[Guido]

You may have better luck at specialist auctions (i.e. tarisio proper) which is taking increasing aim at retail customers.

At T2, the violins are without any attribution, some are as labelled, some are questionable, some are fake, some are "dangerously" trying to deceive.

Same for condition. Some are ready to play, many need work, some are for restoration. Most people will grossly underestimate the effort/ cost associated with getting a violin in actual proper playing condition, even though it may have looked good.

Finally, if you can't try the violins, the odds at auction will be against you. Especially the ones that are in retail condition and could just hang in a shop - because chances are: this is what they just did, and were deemed difficult to sell. You don't need to be a genius to understand that shops/ dealer weed out difficult to sell instruments from time to time by giving them to auction, where most bidders don't get a chance to try them.

[gschwell]

I always look through the T2 list and find a few that look interesting, but never have the courage (if you'd call it that) to actually bid. 

One question I have is about the condition reports.  When they report cracks, they don't clarify if they have been repaired or not.  From what I can tell comparing the photos to the reports, the noted cracks typically look like they've been repaired, but not sure if I should assume one way or the other? 

[deans]

37 minutes ago, gschwell said:

One question I have is about the condition reports.  When they report cracks, they don't clarify if they have been repaired or not.  From what I can tell comparing the photos to the reports, the noted cracks typically look like they've been repaired, but not sure if I should assume one way or the other? 

They are usually quick to clarify these things if you specifically ask. I suppose they don't have the time to write up a detailed report on every crack on every instrument, but they will go back and double check for specific concerns. 

[Wood Butcher]

2 hours ago, gschwell said:

I always look through the T2 list and find a few that look interesting, but never have the courage (if you'd call it that) to actually bid. 

One question I have is about the condition reports.  When they report cracks, they don't clarify if they have been repaired or not.  From what I can tell comparing the photos to the reports, the noted cracks typically look like they've been repaired, but not sure if I should assume one way or the other? 

An auction is not a shop, so there are no guarantees with anything. Items are sold as seen, in the instance of T2.

If you read the fine print in the terms, many auctioneers are keen to point out they are not luthiers, and the condition is described "to the best of their knowledge", which can make for a handy get out of jail card.

Even if cracks are repaired, this does not mean they are well done, or even stable. If you are prepared to take the risks and understand them, there is nothing wrong with an auction purchase. If the risk is not something you wish to take, a shop is probably a better bet.

[GoPractice]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:25 PM, Wood Butcher said:

An auction is not a shop, so there are no guarantees with anything. Items are sold as seen, in the instance of T2.

If you read the fine print in the terms, many auctioneers are keen to point out they are not luthiers, and the condition is described "to the best of their knowledge", which can make for a handy get out of jail card.

Even if cracks are repaired, this does not mean they are well done, or even stable. If you are prepared to take the risks and understand them, there is nothing wrong with an auction purchase. If the risk is not something you wish to take, a shop is probably a better bet.

These are great points to consider. No trade ins, no tune ups ( set up. ) No papers?

1. I have purchased instruments and bows over $5k but in almost every instance, the examples were played before by myself or someone I trust. I have also examined instruments for others who were unable to attend. 

There are additional fees. Discipline matters. I have seen a few modern instruments with maker certificates that were very reasonably priced. Since the maker's market value in these instances were significantly higher, the risks were lower provided the buyer was able to play the instruments and understood what they were getting.

It is sometimes fun to win the article at auction, but when it comes time to play, it is never a great feeling. There were a few articles that no one else bid, and that felt ok. Still, the expense of flying to NY and when not staying with friends in NJ, one starts @ < - $1kusd. 

Auctions are strange. It's work. Competing against professionals ( dealers, speculators ) is difficult. Still, some deals get missed. But Guido's suggestions that many grossly underestimate costs is mostly correct. 

2. Because the instruments were examined, there was never a problem. I did purchase books and a case that were problematic. There were pages missing in a few ( labels ) and drawings in others or tears. One case had a bottom that had been broken and flexed under heavy loads.

But no instruments or bows. With bows, the health might matter for younger players, so seeing them in person is important. 

3. Every purchase from an auction house is a learning experience. Buy a book. Pay attention. Try... I encourage low risk, low threshold.

There used to be a group of guys out here that met to play chamber music and they would contribute to buy instruments from t2-. Like Matesic, they truly enjoyed the experience of sharing ( mostly bows ) that played significantly better the hundreds they paid for... many buy out the other members so they could keep the bows for themselves.

[germain]

Never bought at T2. Always at Tarisio fine instruments. If I like something very much I bid. Did not win every time but most of the time. Never lost a penny on the resale... so far

[shaq]

I only buy some wood or books from T2
Tarisio's condition report is very well done, good buying experience.

[kyproset]

As a player and an avid enthusiast who has been studying violins for a long time, I have bought a few bows and a violin at auction. Never at a T2 auction though because this is for professional people who can put the work in themselves and make a reasonable profit. A T2 auction has a much higher risk factor than a mainstream Tarisio one which is also addressed to players.  For me, I buy to enjoy playing them so research thoroughly before bidding. The old French violin I bought is a great instrument and went on loan to a soloist friend who just played the Goldmark concerto on it and it sounded fantastic. The other two bows, one a J J Martin I still use as my everyday bow, a great find, but the C.N. Bazin I had to sell on as it was a weak stick and having asked beforehand, was told it was a medium to strong stick. There you go if you don't get a chance to try.

For serious purchases though I would only consider going to a dealer. I bought my J B Vuillaume, Sartory and Voirin from dealers and they were great purchases, never regretted that.