Resources/guesses on early 19th century peasant makers?

[Dr. Mark]

Some of this fiddle is certainly homemade:

[stickwitch]

7 hours ago, Andrew Victor said:

The sources that come to my mind are the magazines:

STRINGS magazine's offices moved from San Rafael, CA to Richmond CA a few years ago. THE STRAD magazine published in England for the past 140 (or so) years.

They might be able to provide a bit of background.

Information on thousands of violin makers is found in: William Henley-"Universal Dictionary of Violin Makers" and "The Brompton's Book of Violin and Bow Makers," which is about  50 years newer.

My wife's ancestors, on her father's side, were violin makers in Grossbreitenbach, Germany going back to at least to 1739. Her grandfather brought one such violin (made in 1845) with him when he emigrated to the US in the late 19th century. He earned his living playing it in this country. The family name was Tresselt.

It is now owned by one of our granddaughters.

 

I will ask the magazines, ty, that’s a great idea.  I’ve done searches, but they may have some guesses for me that haven’t made it into print.

My local luthier has been a treasure trove of info on old makers (the beginning of this book is set in there Marches because of his excellent resources on Postacchini).  Most of the books trace lineage, but are woefully low on details like where strings or bow hair came from!

It’s wonderful that you have a family violin with such history.  Thank you for a name - I like doing my digging with a bit of a story attached

 

[stickwitch]

4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Maybe your peasant maker "dumpster dived" in the trash outside these home workshops?

Lol.  No.  I do have him acquiring ribs from a professional luthier, but via a mechanism that would surely get me accused of rose-colored glasses around here

[More seriously, in those days very little tended to be thrown out and I wonder if there was a backdoor trade in inferior parts sold to traveling salesfolk or some such thing.]

[stickwitch]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Some of this fiddle is certainly homemade:

Phew - the original VSO!  

[stickwitch]

Thanks to all for your comments.  Judging by the number of plot ideas getting tossed around, I’m guessing there isn’t actually a lot of firm info on the questions I originally asked, or at least it’s not widely known, and that’s helpful.  If some version of this conversation ends up in the book, I promise to anonymize you all thoroughly, lol.

[Bill Merkel]

What does the peasant violin do in the fantasy novel?  Turn into a swan?

[David Burgess]

19 hours ago, stickwitch said:

 If some version of this conversation ends up in the book, I promise to anonymize you all thoroughly, lol.

Can I be a talking cockroach?

[Bill Merkel]

You can be Premier as the peasant violin leads the revolution.  Maybe Vice Premier.

[stickwitch]

2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

What does the peasant violin do in the fantasy novel?  Turn into a swan?

The plot ideas, they worsen…

In more important questions, please tell me you are Darth Violinist.  (There is one in my town, but I assume he’s not unique).

[stickwitch]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Can I be a talking cockroach?

Nope.  Conservation of mass issues.

[Bill Merkel]

9 minutes ago, stickwitch said:

please tell me you are Darth Violinist. 

I am Dearth Violinist.

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, stickwitch said:

The plot ideas, they worsen…

In more important questions, please tell me you are Darth Violinist.  (There is one in my town, but I assume he’s not unique).

He's Darth Explicable.  Don't encourage him. 

 

1 hour ago, stickwitch said:

Nope.  Conservation of mass issues.

That didn't stop Franz Kafka. 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, stickwitch said:

Nope.  Conservation of mass issues.

When one gets down to the smallest sizes, isn't all mass composed of massless particles, or energies?

[stickwitch]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

That didn't stop Franz Kafka. 

He was a lawyer, not a physicist :-P

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

When one gets down to the smallest sizes, isn't all mass composed of massless particles, or energies?

I think that means you can’t be a cockroach, but you can be a guy with cockroach energy if you want.  ::nods::

[Swing Monkey 1]

Is it really all made by hand?

[Mark Caudle]

I find the idea that it was "amateurs" who supplied remoter local communities with their instruments is, in some instances, misleading. Based on my understanding of the traditions of various localities here in Poland, there are makers who followed and even today sometimes follow methods and designs specific for their local traditions. I would not describe these makers as amateurs but rather as local craftspeople. For example the bass instruments of the Tatra mountain region were and are still often made slightly larger than a normal cello and fitted with three all gut strings. And I have visited a maker on the Slovakian border who still makes these gut strings from scratch to supply the local requirements. Bows are short and locally made to suit the musical needs for the strong rhythmic foundation which the kapela is built on. Most often today the upper instruments (and sometimes the bass ones) are  "the usuals" but up until the middle of the 20th century many local designs were stil in use and being made. The isolation and poverty of communities in the 19th century where even a factory violin would have been beyond the budget of a musician is easy to forget.

[David Burgess]

On 1/16/2023 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mark said:

Some of this fiddle is certainly homemade:

That's a sweetie.

[stickwitch]

17 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

I find the idea that it was "amateurs" who supplied remoter local communities with their instruments is, in some instances, misleading. Based on my understanding of the traditions of various localities here in Poland, there are makers who followed and even today sometimes follow methods and designs specific for their local traditions. I would not describe these makers as amateurs but rather as local craftspeople. For example the bass instruments of the Tatra mountain region were and are still often made slightly larger than a normal cello and fitted with three all gut strings. And I have visited a maker on the Slovakian border who still makes these gut strings from scratch to supply the local requirements. Bows are short and locally made to suit the musical needs for the strong rhythmic foundation which the kapela is built on. Most often today the upper instruments (and sometimes the bass ones) are  "the usuals" but up until the middle of the 20th century many local designs were stil in use and being made. The isolation and poverty of communities in the 19th century where even a factory violin would have been beyond the budget of a musician is easy to forget.

This is wonderful, thank you!  I appreciate knowing of a real life example quite close to what I am imagining.  I use the word “amateur” as my local luthier used it to mean, and it is somewhere on the spectrum of a local craftsperson.  In my book I have made this maker a cabinetmaker who has a sideline repairing the instruments of the village.  So I imagine him as someone with a lot of relevant tools and skills, and a good working knowledge of soundposts, bridges, stringing, crack repair, maybe even replaced a top or two.  But hasn’t made a complete violin from scratch.  So not quite your Polish makers, who it sounds like in many cases are specialized instrument craftspeople?  But absolutely a worker of significant skill.

I’m particularly pleased to hear of a Slovakian making gut strings.  From my research, I think the nearest major string manufacturing centers in Italy to where my story begins would be Rome (250km and lots of mountains away) or Padova and Verona 400+km away.  Even 35yrs ago when I lived in Italy, those would have been considered ridiculous distances to travel for most locals I met in more rural areas.  So I find it very hard to believe that someone more local to the Marches didn’t figure out the business of making gut strings.  They need to be replaced often enough, and are challenging enough to store, that even fairs or traveling salespeople seem like challenging methods of distribution.  Adriatic trade landing at Ancona is also a possible source, but the historical docs I’ve been able to access in languages I can muddle through don’t seem to think countries other than France, Germany, and Italy exist :-P. Do you happen to have anything written or photographed about your Slovakian strings maker?  What an amazing person to visit!

[jacobsaunders]

Don’t forget that there have been “travelling salesmen” criss-crossing Europe for centuries

[stickwitch]

2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Don’t forget that there have been “travelling salesmen” criss-crossing Europe for centuries

Yes - but I’m guessing less likely to deal with the geographies of the smaller hill villages, usually, especially for something this specialized?  But a shop in Fermo might send someone out, or similar?  I can see either mechanism (local maker craftspeople or traveling salespeople - or those selling at local seasonal fairs) being a source for strings, bows, bow rehairs, and either fits my book quite nicely.  Care to guess at what you think is more likely in a mountainous region somewhat off the beaten path?

[jacobsaunders]

27 minutes ago, stickwitch said:

 Care to guess at what you think is more likely in a mountainous region somewhat off the beaten path?

Some Markneukirchen rag & bone man with his wheelbarrow

[stickwitch]

9 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Some Markneukirchen rag & bone man with his wheelbarrow

So… the usual?

[stickwitch]

Leaving some partial answers to my own questions here in case anyone else lands here some day looking for similar info.  Two interesting resources on historical gut string making  (that have extensive bibliographies that are black holes, I’ve been cutting and pasting into Google translate all day):

https://www.hkb-interpretation.ch/publikationen/saitenherstellung-in-markneukirchen-und-im-vogtland

https://www.shop.stringking.net/baroque_stringing/index.html

My very oversimplified takeaway… in the 18th century, best strings were made in Italy.  There were regional centers where the best strings were made in family workshops (but like 20 of them in one city).  But “lesser” strings were made a lot more places, and proximity to fresh sheep guts was an important factor.  I found one report of a pair of sisters who made strings (and hints that a lot of the “lesser” string makers were women).  Guilds and monopolies in the larger locales.  Then a time of transition and by 1875 or so, Markneukirchen was the very dominant maker of strings for much of Europe.  So for my book in 1836, in a rural area with plenty of sheep, I think a reasonably local maker of “lesser” strings is a decent guess.  Likely replaced not too long after that (best guess would be 1860s when the wars were over and Italy unified) by traveling Markneukirchen wheelbarrow guys.

[Mark Caudle]

I should point out that the instrument/string maker that I visited around 10 years ago was Polish and on the Polish side of the border with Slovakia. This is a region where sheep and wool are a strong tradition so gut would be readily available. I was interested because as a baroque player I thought the strings might be interesting but it turned out that the thick strings were not sufficiently high twist to work well for me. He made them by hand on a simple wooden board with nails and they must have been usable for the local bass players. I suspect thinner strings may have been bought in because they are not so expensive but the cost of thick gut bass strings would make local production economic.  I wonder if the Itaiian situation might have been different being so much closer to the recognised centre of string production. As an aside, there is a very interesting water-powered sawmill just opposite his workshop

[stickwitch]

21 hours ago, Mark Caudle said:

I should point out that the instrument/string maker that I visited around 10 years ago was Polish and on the Polish side of the border with Slovakia. This is a region where sheep and wool are a strong tradition so gut would be readily available. I was interested because as a baroque player I thought the strings might be interesting but it turned out that the thick strings were not sufficiently high twist to work well for me. He made them by hand on a simple wooden board with nails and they must have been usable for the local bass players. I suspect thinner strings may have been bought in because they are not so expensive but the cost of thick gut bass strings would make local production economic.  I wonder if the Itaiian situation might have been different being so much closer to the recognised centre of string production. As an aside, there is a very interesting water-powered sawmill just opposite his workshop

Very interesting on the relative economics of certain strings.  The region of Italy where I’m setting my story has a lot of very hilly terrain separating them from major string making centers, and they had plenty of sheep.  So I’m thinking it’s likely that some version of your Polish maker existed at some point in the hills of the Marches.  I’m curious whether your maker sees a steady trickle of baroque players on pilgrimage