Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Wood color.


Nick Allen

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 110
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

12 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Do are these fugitive when mixed with oil varnish, like many other dyes?  Are they transparent?

Yes, they are totally transparent.   Light fastness in absolute terms varies somewhat by color, since almost any color fades under UV, but these metal - based dyes are the least fugitive of all dyes known at present, far more stable than any aniline or vegetable dyes.  I used them in commercial wood finishing systems for a long time. My USP as a custom finisher is that I could do furniture factory quality finishes on architectural / residential interiors which no painting contractor could match at the time. Seems nobody else had bothered  to learn the fairly rudimentary skills at that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Michael Richwine said:

Yes, they are totally transparent.   Light fastness in absolute terms varies somewhat by color, since almost any color fades under UV, but these metal - based dyes are the least fugitive of all dyes known at present, far more stable than any aniline or vegetable dyes.  I used them in commercial wood finishing systems for a long time. My USP as a custom finisher is that I could do furniture factory quality finishes on architectural / residential interiors which no painting contractor could match at the time. Seems nobody else had bothered  to learn the fairly rudimentary skills at that time.

I have the full suite of Orasol dyes. Perhaps I could experiment with them to reach a satisfactory result. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

Keep in mind that in the old stuff you don’t see winter growth on maple at all, just compare dons picture. IMO this detail rules out heat treatment and alkalis for color as the only color source in the wood.

Yes That is because the wood is sized ( not sealed) and a golden 'stain or layer is applied over that which sinks into the size a bit. Most likely one or two thin coats simply of what will be the colour varnish. This takes out the maple growth lines and the loss of the maple growth lines is most apparent on near mint condition examples. Where there has been considerable wear on some examples it is less apparent. Once the size has been stained this way a clear layer is applied to give visual relief to the 'ground' and several more coats of the same colour are applied to build up to an orange red type colour that we think of as the colour coat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

Yes That is because the wood is sized ( not sealed) and a golden 'stain or layer is applied over that which sinks into the size a bit. Most likely one or two thin coats simply of what will be the colour varnish. This takes out the maple growth lines and the loss of the maple growth lines is most apparent on near mint condition examples. Where there has been considerable wear on some examples it is less apparent. Once the size has been stained this way a clear layer is applied to give visual relief to the 'ground' and several more coats of the same colour are applied to build up to an orange red type colour that we think of as the colour coat. 

What type of sizing(s) were applied?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Don Noon said:

And, while I'm at it, some close-ups of the Titian and Willemotte, from Strad3D:

Just to add a little more to what Don has illustrated.

Lighting and light direction are critical in terms of what is or isn't seen, especially on these instruments.  Some shots (Titian) below will hopefully illustrate this.

The first two feature spruce, the first with light along the grain and the second with light across the grain.  Note what reflects light and what doesn't in each.  These were taken through an illuminated magnifier.  The third shot is obviously maple and was taken under room lighting.  The fourth and fifth shots are maple, again taken under the illuminated magnifier with the light aligned along the grain.  Unfortunately I haven't a shot of the maple with light aligned across the grain but a similar thing happens to what is seen in the spruce shots. 

Titian spruce - light along grain.jpg

Titian spruce - light across grain.jpg

Titian corner.jpg

Titian maple 1.jpg

Titian maple 2.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, MikeC said:

I used to work at a textile factory and acquired some synthetic dyes, not sure what kind though.  It looked good on some test samples and I wouldn't rule out using it on a future build although I'm trying to go all natural. 

That company's claim to fame is that they made the fabric for the green jacket of the Masters golf tournament.   I don't have any of the green dye though, just some red that they used on billiard felt.  Yeah there are red billiard tables out there somewhere.  There was even a bright neon pink that one customer ordered.  :D  

When I was a kid, the old pool hall / barber shop in my grandparent's town had red felt on all the snooker tables. I thought this was typical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

When I was a kid, the old pool hall / barber shop in my grandparent's town had red felt on all the snooker tables. I thought this was typical.

I always thought pool tables were green, not sure about snooker.   The company I worked for (Forstmann) made a variety of colors.  I used to get their seconds and sell it on ebay with instructions on how to cover a table.  Had a little gold mine there for a while till they went out of business.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, John Harte said:

Just to add a little more to what Don has illustrated.

Lighting and light direction are critical in terms of what is or isn't seen, especially on these instruments.  Some shots (Titian) below will hopefully illustrate this.

The first two feature spruce, the first with light along the grain and the second with light across the grain.  Note what reflects light and what doesn't in each.  These were taken through an illuminated magnifier.  The third shot is obviously maple and was taken under room lighting.  The fourth and fifth shots are maple, again taken under the illuminated magnifier with the light aligned along the grain.  Unfortunately I haven't a shot of the maple with light aligned across the grain but a similar thing happens to what is seen in the spruce shots. 

Titian spruce - light along grain.jpg

Titian spruce - light across grain.jpg

Titian corner.jpg

Titian maple 1.jpg

Titian maple 2.jpg

Lord have mercy, thanks John... Wow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

Yes That is because the wood is sized ( not sealed) and a golden 'stain or layer is applied over that which sinks into the size a bit. Most likely one or two thin coats simply of what will be the colour varnish. This takes out the maple growth lines and the loss of the maple growth lines is most apparent on near mint condition examples. Where there has been considerable wear on some examples it is less apparent. Once the size has been stained this way a clear layer is applied to give visual relief to the 'ground' and several more coats of the same colour are applied to build up to an orange red type colour that we think of as the colour coat. 

Couldn’t agree more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

Historically verifiable mediums as would been used in art use....not many options but adjusting the chosen medium for the purpose might be the key

 

What do you mean by adjusting the chosen medium?  

By 'sized' do you mean just a light coating to prevent end grain blotchiness?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

For the last month, I have been running a UV test on spruce and maple, and torrefied samples.  9 days were clear enough to put out in the weak-ish January sun, otherwise it was in my wimpy 80W lightbox day and night.  Half of the wood was covered with aluminum foil to preserve the original color.  The spruce was from the same Engelmann log, and the maple was from the same European maple board.

Spruce is on the left, and the upper and lower images were taken with a different lighting direction.  Spruce is extremely reflective with the light perpendicular to the grain.  The torrefied wood is hopefully obvious.

375562593_230128Spruce.jpg.3c0becea45ccd6bfaac14a1293c46935.jpg1586928319_230128Maple.jpg.f5d22eca7fed4f73f84d19adcee06e60.jpg

The fresh wood does the expected thing of heading toward yellow/orange/brown with exposure to UV, and the torrefied wood starts out quite brown, and lightens to a more grayish appearance.  I may take these sample out in the Summer to see if the stronger UV and UVB makes any difference.

I also did some maple tests with ground (terpene) and clear varnish (Epifanes boat varnish) to see if that blocked any UV effect, and as best I can tell, the UV effect is about the same as bare wood.  Pigments probably matter, but I'm not about to get into that.

Another note is the darker annular rings with the torrefied wood, and the difference remains after UV.  I have a complex reasoning why all that happens, which I won't go into now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Do you have any idea why the color lightens?

Nope.

One other thing... the torrefied wood looks extremely dark when put next to fresh wood... but without the direct comparison, it's not so bad.  Also, it has been my observation that most old violins are very dark, but you don't notice it so much until compared directly to a new instrument (but various pre-darkening measures can compensate, sortof).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...