Oil varnish Beading Issue

[Violin Varnish Italy]

This is the photo a 20 minutes from the application, as soon as I can upload the video. These are things that I have to do after 10 years of experience, i.e. be treated as incompetent, and it wasn't enough that there is a series of videos on youtube where I varnished a violin with that varnish .... no! It's the varnish that's not good! So if I managed to roll it out for the umpteenth time it's proof that I am jesus!

 

[ernym]

1 hour ago, Violin Varnish Italy said:

I have always strongly advised against the use of mineral solvents, because they separate the oil from the resin, there are essential oils with slower evaporation.

I don't thin your varnishes. I was only stating that turpentine is not my choice when it comes to thinning varnishes because it dries too fast. Your varnishes are fine and do not need thinning in my experience.

[JacksonMaberry]

Nestor, sounds like your doing right by your brushes. In my view the most critical operation is completely removing all traces of soap - soap will mess with surface tension if it is allowed to contaminate your surfaces. Joe Robson has written on a great method of cleaning brushes in a series of solvents, including alcohol, turpentine, and acetone iirc. Hopefully you can find his posts on it without difficulty. It allows you to skip soap altogether, which I think is valuable. 

Another approach I use and recommend is applying the varnish not with a brush, but with cosmetic sponges - I believe these are a polyurethane foam, but I may be mistaken. You use them to pad the varnish on, and doing so in this way makes it rather easy to apply very thin even coats. In varnishes which are not very self leveling (Nunzio's and my own self level well), this can be a time saver when it comes to the polishing stage. 

 

As a last note, I would humbly ask that all parties in the conversation please do their best to keep cool heads and remain civil. Any interpersonal conflicts should be resolved privately wherever possible.

[ernym]

53 minutes ago, Violin Varnish Italy said:

This is the photo a 20 minutes from the application, as soon as I can upload the video. These are things that I have to do after 10 years of experience, i.e. be treated as incompetent, and it wasn't enough that there is a series of videos on youtube where I varnished a violin with that varnish .... no! It's the varnish that's not good! So if I managed to roll it out for the umpteenth time it's proof that I am jesu

Nunzio,

There are just a few people in this thread who are blaming the varnish, two of them sell their own commercially. Having used your varnish since you started selling 10 years ago, if I remember it was Christian Bayon who first posted here about how he liked your varnish and on this recommendation I began using it. 

I think the problem is not the varnishes fault but user application error. I tried not to come right out and say that and rather offered suggestions. You clearly state in the instructions to sand between coats to help with adhesion. It's a shame that the OP is frustrated with his first violin endeavor, we've all been there. I remember he had a hard time accepting criticism by senior makers at first. It's hard to be humble at times.

I'm glad you stepped in to defend your products. I'm still using your varnishes after ten years and if they were as bad as some say I would not have a cabinet full of them.

 

-Ernest M

[Violin Varnish Italy]

5 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

Nunzio,

There are just a few people in this thread who are blaming the varnish, two of them sell their own commercially. Having used your varnish since you started selling 10 years ago, if I remember it was Christian Bayon who first posted here about how he liked your varnish and on this recommendation I began using it. 

I think the problem is not the varnishes fault but user application error. I tried not to come right out and say that and rather offered suggestions. You clearly state in the instructions to sand between coats to help with adhesion. It's a shame that the OP is frustrated with his first violin endeavor, we've all been there. I remember he had a hard time accepting criticism by senior makers at first. It's hard to be humble at times.

I'm glad you stepped in to defend your products. I'm still using your varnishes after ten years and if they were as bad as some say I would not have a cabinet full of them.

 

-Ernest M

Thanks Ernest ! 

[Violin Varnish Italy]

In the meantime that the video loads, these are two more photos taken with a macro lens, no shrinkage in the varnish can be seen

[JacksonMaberry]

9 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

There are just a few people in this thread who are blaming the varnish, two of them sell their own commercially.

Please carefully reexamine what I've written - I am not slighting Nunzio's varnish or his skills. Taking into account what I know of his varnish (quite a bit - I've used it before I began making my own and I also have his book) and what we have been able to discern from the topic creator, I posited the possibility that the batch in question may not have been perfectly prepared. Every maker of varnish, commercially or not, has an off batch from time to time. 

Nunzio is deserving of respect, and should be given the benefit of the doubt, but we should all try to help where help is asked for and sometimes that means drawing attention to uncomfortable possibilities. 

[Violin Varnish Italy]

 

The varnishing video. I think I don't have to prove anything anymore. However, I repeat that the instructions provided by each varnish supplier must be respected and oil varnishes, by their nature, cannot be used like spirit varnishes.

This is my last message
I take this opportunity to say hello to all friends in this forum.
Nunzio DImunno

 

 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

Nunzio,

There are just a few people in this thread who are blaming the varnish, two of them sell their own commercially. Having used your varnish since you started selling 10 years ago, if I remember it was Christian Bayon who first posted here about how he liked your varnish and on this recommendation I began using it. 

I think the problem is not the varnishes fault but user application error. I tried not to come right out and say that and rather offered suggestions. You clearly state in the instructions to sand between coats to help with adhesion. It's a shame that the OP is frustrated with his first violin endeavor, we've all been there. I remember he had a hard time accepting criticism by senior makers at first. It's hard to be humble at times.

I'm glad you stepped in to defend your products. I'm still using your varnishes after ten years and if they were as bad as some say I would not have a cabinet full of them.

 

-Ernest M

I am glad to know that the varnish worked for you. I don't have trouble accepting any criticism, in fact it is criticism that I seek in order to get better, because violin making is something I am very serious about. To prove this to you I have a degree in Nuclear and Particle Physics which would give me a potential to have a good career and a steady income. Despite that  in a few months I plan to go to Italy with the very few italian that I know to study what I really love, violin making at the School of Cremona. So really I love criticism, it is true that I had a bit of a rough time accepting it at first but I right now it is all I need to improve my work and get better at it.

I have explained my procedure thoroughly. The only thing a didn't do "by the book" is sand the surface to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. If this makes such a huge difference and stops the varnish from beading I don't know. However I am aware that many professional luthiers such as Mr. Burgess advice against sanding the instrument in between coats to get a nice orange peel effect but also, as I said, to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. A varnish that can only work on instruments that end up looking like a highly polished car, due to sanding, (though desirable to many) is not something that appeals to me. Of course opinions may vary, but this is mine... 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, Violin Varnish Italy said:

 

The varnishing video. I think I don't have to prove anything anymore. However, I repeat that the instructions provided by each varnish supplier must be respected and oil varnishes, by their nature, cannot be used like spirit varnishes.

This is my last message
I take this opportunity to say hello to all friends in this forum.
Nunzio DImunno

 

 

 

Thanks Nunzio. I agree you have nothing to prove and that it is absolutely critical to follow manufacturer guidelines to the letter, at least until you have developed such a deep knowledge of the material that you can begin to experiment. 

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

I am glad to know that the varnish worked for you. I don't have trouble accepting any criticism, in fact it is criticism that I seek in order to get better, because violin making is something I am very serious about. To prove this to you I have a degree in Nuclear and Particle Physics which would give me a potential to have a good career and a steady income. Despite that  in a few months I plan to go to Italy with the very few italian that I know to study what I really love, violin making at the School of Cremona. So really I love criticism, it is true that I had a bit of a rough time accepting it at first but I right now it is all I need to improve my work and get better at it.

I have explained my procedure thoroughly. The only thing a didn't do "by the book" is sand the surface to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. If this makes such a huge difference and stops the varnish from beading I don't know. However I am aware that many professional luthiers such as Mr. Burgess advice against sanding the instrument in between coats to get a nice orange peel effect but also, as I said, to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. A varnish that can only work on instruments that end up looking like a highly polished car, due to sanding, (though desirable to many) is not something that appeals to me. Of course opinions may vary, but this is mine... 

 

As I have said before, gentle abrasive polishing between coats, with something like tripoli in oil or the excellent and cheap 3M non-woven polishing cloths dampened with turpentine or mineral spirits, does not sacrifice either wood or varnish texture. Here is one of my most recent instruments, showing  incidental tool marks, wood texture and varnish texture. That was five coats of varnish (colorless separator coat, three coats of color, colorless Congo topcoat), each one polished wet with 3M cloth in between coats. 

We are not asking you to dry sand with 400 grit, just make some micro scratches for the next coat to lock into. I hope this helps you visualize the topic, which Nunzio has correctly included in his guidelines, and I insist on in my own.

[ernym]

14 minutes ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

I am glad to know that the varnish worked for you. I don't have trouble accepting any criticism, in fact it is criticism that I seek in order to get better, because violin making is something I am very serious about. To prove this to you I have a degree in Nuclear and Particle Physics which would give me a potential to have a good career and a steady income. Despite that  in a few months I plan to go to Italy with the very few italian that I know to study what I really love, violin making at the School of Cremona. So really I love criticism, it is true that I had a bit of a rough time accepting it at first but I right now it is all I need to improve my work and get better at it.

I have explained my procedure thoroughly. The only thing a didn't do "by the book" is sand the surface to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. If this makes such a huge difference and stops the varnish from beading I don't know. However I am aware that many professional luthiers such as Mr. Burgess advice against sanding the instrument in between coats to get a nice orange peel effect but also, as I said, to avoid ruining the texture of the wood. A varnish that can only work on instruments that end up looking like a highly polished car, due to sanding, (though desirable to many) is not something that appeals to me. Of course opinions may vary, but this is mine... 

 

It's refreshing to see enthusiasm and humility grow as experienced is gained. You are on a wonderful journey and I wish you the very best with your studies in Cremona. 

As mentioned I don't always sand between coats. I sand if there are a lot of dust particles or if the varnish has cured to a certain point. To avoid sanding knowing when to apply another coat is helpful. One of the things I like about VV Italy is the varnish dries fast and hard. Some varnishes take several days, this can leads to more problems.

There are many roads to Rome, I'm sure you'll find yours.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

As I have said before, gentle abrasive polishing between coats, with something like tripoli in oil or the excellent and cheap 3M non-woven polishing cloths dampened with turpentine or mineral spirits, does not sacrifice either wood or varnish texture. Here is one of my most recent instruments, showing  incidental tool marks, wood texture and varnish texture. That was five coats of varnish (colorless separator coat, three coats of color, colorless Congo topcoat), each one polished wet with 3M cloth in between coats. 

We are not asking you to dry sand with 400 grit, just make some micro scratches for the next coat to lock into. I hope this helps you visualize the topic, which Nunzio has correctly included in his guidelines, and I insist on in my own.

Nunzio suggests to use 800 grit sandpaper with water and a few drops of hand soap. I have already starting applying the varnish again with sanding in between, just without the soap, only water. I would like to give the 3M non-woven polishing cloths a try. Is there a grit equivalent for them?

Beautiful surface by the way and I don't see any scratches from an abrasive so I will take your advice and try it, see if it makes any difference. Thank you.

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

lot of dust particles

For what it's worth, I find a very thin, flexible steel scraper intended for pottery to be a better way of taking care of dust nits. It's more targeted, and if you use it without a burr it will glide across the surface of the varnish, hitting only the high spots (the nits)

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, Violin Varnish Italy said:

Spread the oil varnish like a spirit varnish, furthermore you are not brushing but you are "dabbing". The oil varnish needs to be applied longer and the glossy surface reveals the fact that you haven't sanded before, evidently you haven't read my instructions in the manual at all.

I don't like to sand between coats, because it tends to obliterate the natural texture of the underlying wood. Is sanding between coats essential in order to successfully use your products?

I'll add that you have mentioned some reference to being Jesus Christ, twice so far in this thread alone.  Is this supposed to sway opinions, or might you be having a serious wedgie day, and hoping that God will fix it?

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

Nunzio suggests to use 800 grit sandpaper with water and a few drops of hand soap. I have already starting applying the varnish again with sanding in between, just without the soap, only water. I would like to give the 3M non-woven polishing cloths a try. Is there a grit equivalent for them?

Beautiful surface by the way and I don't see any scratches from an abrasive so I will take your advice and try it, see if it makes any difference. Thank you.

https://contenti.com/3m-wetordry-reg-tri-m-ite-reg-polishing-paper

This site shows the grit equivalents of the cloths, which are mfgr rated in microns. They don't cut as aggressively as the equivalent grit papers, but act more like micromesh. The whole set is useful, and while use the grey or blue for in between coats, wetted with mineral spirits (which I do Not use as a varnish solvent) I run through the whole set for finishing necks, wetting and drying with water between grits. This gets me a very smooth, fast neck quickly and reliably. 

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, David Burgess said:

because it tends to obliterate the natural texture of the underlying wood

It sure can, but it doesn't have to provided you use the right materials and techniques, but you know that already. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

It's refreshing to see enthusiasm and humility grow as experienced is gained. You are on a wonderful journey and I wish you the very best with your studies in Cremona. 

As mentioned I don't always sand between coats. I sand if there are a lot of dust particles or if the varnish has cured to a certain point. To avoid sanding knowing when to apply another coat is helpful. One of the things I like about VV Italy is the varnish dries fast and hard. Some varnishes take several days, this can leads to more problems.

There are many roads to Rome, I'm sure you'll find yours.

Thank you  If I can think of a part that is my fault that makes the varnish beading it is that in one of the 6 coats I took about 3-4 days to apply the next one. Can the varnish be too dry making it difficult for the next layers to form properly?

This is something that I have not much control upon because currently I am in the army and often I have 24 hour shifts where I am away from home and can't apply the next coat of varnish within the 24 hours that is suggested.

But since you mentioned the hardness part I found quite the opposite. The varnish surely seems dry but if you put a finger on the surface it sticks to it a little bit. I did contact Nunzio about that and he said this is normal due to the Colophony resin being quite soft compared to other resins such as amber. That makes sense I suppose. But it definitely didn't seem hard to me despite having used a relatively strong UV Cabinet to dry it.

[JacksonMaberry]

4 minutes ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

Thank you  If I can think of a part that is my fault that makes the varnish beading it is that in one of the 6 coats I took about 3-4 days to apply the next one. Can the varnish be too dry making it difficult for the next layers to form properly?

This is something that I have not much control upon because currently I am in the army and often I have 24 hour shifts where I am away from home and can't apply the next coat of varnish within the 24 hours that is suggested.

But since you mentioned the hardness part I found quite the opposite. The varnish surely seems dry but if you put a finger on the surface it sticks to it a little bit. I did contact Nunzio about that and he said this is normal due to the Colophony resin being quite soft compared to other resins such as amber. That makes sense I suppose. But it definitely didn't seem hard to me despite having used a relatively strong UV Cabinet to dry it.

Others have said here and elsewhere that they prefer to apply the next coat while the previous is still somewhat pliable, and I will have to disagree here. If you put more varnish on top of a coat which is not highly cured, the lower coats will have less access to the atmospheric oxygen that they require to fully cure at all. This is, to my mind, not great. I have a simple test that I use to decide if it is ready for a quick light scuffing and the next coat - I press my thumb with light pressure into the varnish and hold it there for ten seconds: if it leaves a print, I don't consider it ready for the next coat.

[ernym]

6 minutes ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

But since you mentioned the hardness part I found quite the opposite. The varnish surely seems dry but if you put a finger on the surface it sticks to it a little bit. I did contact Nunzio about that and he said this is normal due to the Colophony resin being quite soft compared to other resins such as amber. That makes sense I suppose. But it definitely didn't seem hard to me despite having used a relatively strong UV Cabinet to dry it.

 I use the rosinate varnishes on top of each other to achieve the color I want and then 1-2 coats of amber. I can string up a newly varnished fiddle in less than a week, but I like to wait a little longer. 

I like the colored varnishes to not be too hard when applying the next color coat, this helps the varnish adhere to the previous coat. Once the color is down I'll dry for several days and then apply the amber. A drop or two of siccative can help speed things up too.

[ernym]

16 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Others have said here and elsewhere that they prefer to apply the next coat while the previous is still somewhat pliable, and I will have to disagree here. If you put more varnish on top of a coat which is not highly cured, the lower coats will have less access to the atmospheric oxygen that they require to fully cure at all. This is, to my mind, not great. I have a simple test that I use to decide if it is ready for a quick light scuffing and the next coat - I press my thumb with light pressure into the varnish and hold it there for ten seconds: if it leaves a print, I don't consider it ready for the next coat.

Right, knowing when to apply the next coat comes with experience and knowing your varnish. And as mentioned testing it on samples before hand. It also depends on how thick of a coat is applied. There are different siccatives too, some dry from the middle out and some from the top down. That's why knowing how the varnish behaves is crucial to it's manipulation. These commercial violin varnishes are handmade and can vary with different organic ingredients. If you want a brush-n-go varnish buy some boat varnish.

[David Rosales]

@Violin Varnish Italy I'm very new to this community and violin making in general. I'm not a professional either so I don't really care what you or anyone else thinks about me when I say that your products may be well respected, but your customer service is severely lacking and after reading this thread, disgusting. I don't use that word lightly. 

 

I'll take my business elsewhere in the future.

[Violin Varnish Italy]

41 minutes ago, David Rosales said:

@Violin Varnish Italy I'm very new to this community and violin making in general. I'm not a professional either so I don't really care what you or anyone else thinks about me when I say that your products may be well respected, but your customer service is severely lacking and after reading this thread, disgusting. I don't use that word lightly. 

 

I'll take my business elsewhere in the future.

This is how I behave with rude customers and stalkers. I don't care about your opinion. Happy not to sell you my products.

[GoPractice]

The general problems with beading aside...

The process can be difficult even for some makers of very fine sounding instruments. In speaking to a few, they have chosen to sacrifice what might be the utmost beauty, and there is a difficulty in determining what that sense and quality of beauty might mean to any group of individuals. For some it is the transparency or texture or for others the virtual existence, the sheerness is desired. Loaning instruments can be problematic, especially to students who sometimes appear to be living life in a sleepless daze. But there is no dilemma when it comes to loaning out beautifully varnished instruments: do not do it.

These are difficult but valid decisions for some. If there were an inexpensive quickly repeatable process that looked wonderful, many would gravitate towards that method. But there is also craft that we admire and skills are always being improved. Generally being practical and likely to take a top off several times, the thinnest varnishes are appealing. Mass aside, the varnish applied is there to protect the wood. Do not mind shiny. And there is a place for French Polish too but no linger in the mainstream. 

For my limited problems encountered in the past, many were contamination, where it took months ( years ) to finish some projects. In obsessing over, handling and playing the instrument in the white, it was very possible that other projects, including by products of metal work might have worked their way into the ground, early coats. The high cost of the Magister forced a more careful approach.

More time was spent removing layers than applying them.

[David Burgess]

11 minutes ago, Violin Varnish Italy said:

This is how I behave with rude customers and stalkers. I don't care about your opinion. Happy not to sell you my products.

Do you have any opinions about rude sellers?