Oil varnish Beading Issue

[Guest]

I have purchased four varnishes from Violin Varnish Italy. I didn't have issues with any of them but the Madder Rosinate one just won't adhere to the previous layers of the Zinc Rosinate (Ground Varnish) instead it beads up, probably due to its surface tension,  leaving spots without any varnish on them. 

I really can't figure out a way to prevent this from happening. I left it for a day to allow some of the turpentine to evaporate and make it a bit thicker but I still had the same issue. Here are some pictures and also a video which shows very clearly what I am talking about.

 

[Wood Butcher]

Are you adding something to the varnish? If so, what is it?

Do you add a thinner of any kind?

Have you been rubbing down the dried coats before applying the next one?

How long do you leave each coat to dry for?

In your video, the varnish seems to have no body, and almost the consistency of water.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Are you adding something to the varnish? If so, what is it?

Do you add a thinner of any kind?

Have you been rubbing down the dried coats before applying the next one?

How long do you leave each coat to dry for?

In your video, the varnish seems to have no body, and almost the consistency of water.

That is actually how it was sent to me from "Violin Varnish Italy". I haven't added any thinner at all. What you see in the video is just a dry brush dipped into the Madder Rosinate Oil varnish as it was sent to me. I leave each coat to dry for at least a day or two in the UV box before applying the next one.

I don't rub the surface with anything. And I don't use sandpaper between the coats. All the other 3 types of varnish that were sent to me adhere properly to the previous layers. This one just doesn't...

The varnish in the video sure is very thin, but even when I thickened it quite a bit by letting part of the the thinner that was used by its maker, evaporate, the same thing happened again.

[Wood Butcher]

I believe there are some here on the forum, one person in particular, who has experience and good results with this varnish. I have not used it, so can offer little advice on this brand.

It seems you are leaving enough time between coats, I think we all do it differently, I can only say that 48 hours in the UV box seems a long time, but I could be wrong.

As you are not adding anything, or sanding between coats, we can probably rule out any contamination from those.

[Greg Sigworth]

The Madder Rosinate Oil varnish is not wetting the previous varnish and beads up like water on a polished car. Try to use the ROV on another varnished surface to see where the problem lies. I was doing some repair work on a table top once where I could not varnish the repaired/stained surface because of the same problem; the varnish would not wet he preexisting surface. You could contact the supplier for a solution. Can you apply another clear coat to act as a buffer between the the varnishes? Good luck. 

[Shunyata]

I have the same issue unless I am very careful.  The ground varnish must be wiped away during application.  Lightly sand the ground varnish coat to improve adhesion.  Then I thin the first few coats of madder with turpentine, about half and half.  Apply very thin coats.  This seems to create a base coat that the remaining layers can adhere to.  Watch carefully for beading on these first layers and repeatedly dry-brush problem spots until you get adhesion.

I know… it’s as awful as it sounds.  But you will get a base to work from.  Use micro mesh pads to clean up if needed.
 

The madder rosinate is a very different animal than the other Violin Varnish Italy products.  I think it may actually be shellac.  It is completely alcohol soluble and a small amount of alcohol will completely strip the color. You cannot French polish over it.  Fortunately it is a harder finish than the other products so wear is less of an issue… but I am still not happy with how it wears. 
 

[ernym]

I think you should try lightly sanding the surface so the varnish has some tooth to grab onto. I will not dry the varnish that long before applying the next coat. 

[David Alex T.]

Do both varnish can be mixed together ?

If they can t be mixed you ll face issues.

[Shunyata]

Agree don’t dry too long between coats!  This makes the issue worse.  I have best luck with 3-4 hours I’m in light box between coats.

[Oliver N]

I had similar problems with these varnishes and found that wiping it over with alcohol (damp, clean cloth) then lightly rubbing down with 1000 grit helped.

https://www.americanartistinrome.com/plog/2011/03/23/why-paint-beads-and-medium-sweats-and-how-to-fix-it/

I've stopped using varnishes from Violin Varnish Italy after some other issues.

[ernym]

2 hours ago, Oliver N said:

I had similar problems with these varnishes and found that wiping it over with alcohol (damp, clean cloth) then lightly rubbing down with 1000 grit helped.

https://www.americanartistinrome.com/plog/2011/03/23/why-paint-beads-and-medium-sweats-and-how-to-fix-it/

I've stopped using varnishes from Violin Varnish Italy after some other issues.

What other issues?

[Guest]

To be honest I can't figure out a way to make this particular varnish work (the madder rosinate one). The surface has not been sanded but because aside from the brush also use the pad printing method to make a thin layer even the surface isn't that smooth, so the next layers have something to grab onto without requiring to use sandpaper. I also don't want to eliminate the corduroy texture of the spruce, hence I avoid using any sort of abrasive. 

That being said I did test the varnish on the scrap piece of wood to which I have applied the exact same coats and types of varnish as my violin and even after sanding the varnish still starts beading.

I will skip the madder rosinate varnish as it is clearly flawed and go straight to the amber oil varnish. If the color does not turn out right I will just color it with some cochineal or pigment from madder root...

[Oliver N]

12 hours ago, charliemaine said:

What other issues?

Surface tension/beading, going tacky and impossible to brush at almost spirit varnish speed and very chippy/brittle once dried. The colored varnishes were the worst in my experience.

Perhaps I was unlucky with the batches I got, other people seem to have had good results!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Oliver N said:

Surface tension/beading, going tacky and impossible to brush at almost spirit varnish speed and very chippy/brittle once dried. The colored varnishes were the worst in my experience.

Perhaps I was unlucky with the batches I got, other people seem to have had good results!

I've had the same issues, I just mentioned the beading only. But yeah I would not recommend them.

I decided to strip the varnish and start again, and begin sanding in between coats and see if there's any difference. 

[DonLeister]

I’ve had that beading issue with that zinc rosinate ground when I applied oil varnishes that  I have made. 
I got around it by rubbing the ground it lightly with Tripoli. Still it bothered me to do that so I stopped using that ground. 

[ernym]

3 hours ago, Oliver N said:

Surface tension/beading, going tacky and impossible to brush at almost spirit varnish speed and very chippy/brittle once dried. The colored varnishes were the worst in my experience.

Perhaps I was unlucky with the batches I got, other people seem to have had good results!

The fast dry to tack time is an issue especially when using brushes only. It's something I had to get used to. I do apply quickly with a brush and then pad to an even coat. I learned to just work faster when applying the varnishes. 

I had one batch of madder rosinate varnish that was a little too delicate and would easily chip off. My recent order seems fine though. Another thing I do is to add a drop or two of polymerized linseed oil, like Joe's "Linox" or a longer oil varnish. This will help prolong the dry to tack time and make the varnish more durable. I have also mixed it with a little of the brown varnish. The brown varnish dries extremely fast so again you have to compensate.

I do likewise with the amber varnish, I mix a longer oil varnish like Alchemist with the amber at a 4:1 ratio. It softens the varnish to where it will dent instead of fly off, but still drys well and remains hard.

I've experimented only a little with the zinc rosinate ground. I use a different ground that I like.

I will agree the varnishes are not the easiest to manipulate but once I got used to the fast drying time I now prefer it over a slow drying varnish because it produces less dust nits.

 

[Shunyata]

Fast drying time is moderated by thinning with turpentine and applying thinner coats, but nits and dust do become problematic.  Mixing with other varnishes also helps.  I used a pad rather than a brush so that the varnish goes on smoothly and needs little spreading… the natural flow of the varnish spreads it enough.

The varnishes are quite chippy… but gum up and wear away very quickly at contact points.  I am going to try cooking my own as an alternative.

[MikeC]

23 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

The fast dry to tack time is an issue especially when using brushes only. It's something I had to get used to. I do apply quickly with a brush and then pad to an even coat. I learned to just work faster when applying the varnishes. 

I had one batch of madder rosinate varnish that was a little too delicate and would easily chip off. My recent order seems fine though. Another thing I do is to add a drop or two of polymerized linseed oil, like Joe's "Linox" or a longer oil varnish. This will help prolong the dry to tack time and make the varnish more durable. I have also mixed it with a little of the brown varnish. The brown varnish dries extremely fast so again you have to compensate.

I do likewise with the amber varnish, I mix a longer oil varnish like Alchemist with the amber at a 4:1 ratio. It softens the varnish to where it will dent instead of fly off, but still drys well and remains hard.

I've experimented only a little with the zinc rosinate ground. I use a different ground that I like.

I will agree the varnishes are not the easiest to manipulate but once I got used to the fast drying time I now prefer it over a slow drying varnish because it produces less dust nits.

 

That looks good! 

[Muswell]

3 hours ago, Oliver N said:

Surface tension/beading, going tacky and impossible to brush at almost spirit varnish speed and very chippy/brittle once dried.

Me too. I rub down lightly between coats and  managed to get over the worst of the beading by not thinning and  padding/brushing very carefully..... scroll and peg box were the worst because the rubbing down was not so effective. The finished varnish chips as soon as you look at it.  The instrument has acquired a good tiny chips during set up, which I've never had before. I think the chip imps sneak into my workshop overnight

[ernym]

38 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

Fast drying time is moderated by thinning with turpentine and applying thinner coats, but nits and dust do become problematic.  Mixing with other varnishes also helps.  I used a pad rather than a brush so that the varnish goes on smoothly and needs little spreading… the natural flow of the varnish spreads it enough.

The varnishes are quite chippy… but gum up and wear away very quickly at contact points.  I am going to try cooking my own as an alternative.

I wouldn't recommend thinning these varnishes with turpentine. Turpentine dries too fast and will lessen the open time. W&N white spirit is a better option because it dries slower. I don't thin the varnishes because I want to put down as much color as possible in a single coat which is why I also add mulled madder pigment.

[ernym]

19 minutes ago, Muswell said:

Me too. I rub down lightly between coats and  managed to get over the worst of the beading by not thinning and  padding/brushing very carefully..... scroll and peg box were the worst because the rubbing down was not so effective. The finished varnish chips as soon as you look at it.  The instrument has acquired a good tiny chips during set up, which I've never had before. I think the chip imps sneak into my workshop overnight

I don't let the varnish cure too much before applying another coat, I think this helps. A quick wipe with white spirit to soften the previous helps too. If cured too much then sanding is needed. I think Nunzio recommends sanding between coats so that the subsequent coats adhere well. I don't like sanding the top either which is why I'm careful when applying to the top, trying my best to avoid dust nits. I'll varnish the top only and let that cure enough first before varnishing the rest of the fiddle. And when I do sand I use wetted 1000 grit  paper on a backing pad or eraser very lightly, just enough to knock down the dust nits.

[ernym]

Here is the amber and I think some added brown varnish on it's own.

[Muswell]

That's nice.  Is that with the 1:4 Alchemist blend? And is it chip resistant?

[Michael Szyper]

9 hours ago, Nestor Vassiliou said:

To be honest I can't figure out a way to make this particular varnish work (the madder rosinate one). The surface has not been sanded but because aside from the brush also use the pad printing method to make a thin layer even the surface isn't that smooth, so the next layers have something to grab onto without requiring to use sandpaper. I also don't want to eliminate the corduroy texture of the spruce, hence I avoid using any sort of abrasive. 

That being said I did test the varnish on the scrap piece of wood to which I have applied the exact same coats and types of varnish as my violin and even after sanding the varnish still starts beading.

I will skip the madder rosinate varnish as it is clearly flawed and go straight to the amber oil varnish. If the color does not turn out right I will just color it with some cochineal or pigment from madder root...

I am pretty sure you know about other madder colored pigment free varnishes. If you want to stick with rosinates, Jackson Maberry makes some great stuff.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

I am pretty sure you know about other madder colored pigment free varnishes. If you want to stick with rosinates, Jackson Maberry makes some great stuff.

Thank you for the suggestion. I am aware that Jackson makes some great varnish. The only problem is that he ships it from the US and if you add shipping, import taxes + customs fee it gets pretty expensive.

Honestly I should have gone with his varnish though, because aside from the beading and many other issues that the varnish I bought has presented, my experience communicating with Nunzio has not been very nice. I have sent him the  video I uploaded in this post and he completely ignored me and when I commented in his YouTube video about my issue he said that the fact that his varnish worked properly in the video, means that  it's user's error (mine) that caused issues with the varnish. That could be true but I kind of doubt that, based on what other people have posted here. 

I will try to strip the varnish and give it another go where I will sand in between coats. If that doesn't work again it really don't know what else to do and its really frustrating considering that I have spent months making this instrument and it would be really sad to ruin it with a varnish that won't "behave" properly. At this point I am really considering removing the varnish and send the violin to another luthier to finish it. But I would really hate to do that and miss the opportunity of varnishing my first instrument.