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Carlo Loveri c. 1880 Violin Value


Chai

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18 hours ago, billschettler said:

The bridge inserts and lower saddle show that this was in a Mills Violano mechanical violin. It is a player piano with a mechanical violin assembly bolted to the violin....

 

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

This sort of mechanic would require a completely different fingerboard (resp. no board), so it's very unlikely that the OP violin was part of such a machine...

 

Because of the bridge inserts, I think the OP violin may have been used in some of mechanical device, but not in a Mills Violano.  I say this because I once had a labeled Mills Novelty Company violin.  It had something at the bridge feet positions, but not inserts like those in the OP violin.  It also had pegs and a normal saddle and fingerboard.

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I have an Antonio Loveri  from Germany that I'm going to be unloading soon. I was a little surprised to see a respected shop in the East asking $5000 for one, and others asking anywhere from $4000 on down to $1500.. Apparently some were made in Mirecourt and some in Markneukirchen, and imported by Tonk Bros, who billed themselves as sole importers.

I did find a 1942 viola by the Loveri Brothers that auctioned in 1999 for $3450. Still doesn't lend much support to the seller's claims, though.

Looks like I'm gonna have to polish up that Anton fiddle, though!

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  • 2 months later...

Funny how some of the people on here commenting seem to know little  about violins in general and yet always have an opinion, even trying to compare "Antonio" Loveri violins, which was a German trade name, to the real maker Carlo Loveri of Naples? Really? Wow. This violin was shown to one of the top dealers in the USA in Chicago who said definitely late 19th Century Italian, probably Puglisi or something along those lines, but then I found a Carlo Loveri which sold at auction and it is clearly the same maker, for anyone with eyes to see the complete similarities. And having the same Mills Novelty label also, by the way just to boot. Look on Gindin's price guide and yes, $40000 for this maker. Also, for the uneducated, look at the many other Italian makers from this era which go for under $4k at auction and are at reputable shops all around the world for $30-$40k. I decided ultimately just to keep it and restore it myself but was offering it at $4k because this one will certainly sound good but needs about $3-$4k of restoration which I did not want to do at the time. 

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Why bother? Because the violin was seen by one of the top dealers in Chicago who said late 19th Century Italian, probably Puglisi or something along those lines then I saw another sold at auction with the same Mills Novelty label in it--same as this one, which is funny how some comment it is not from a Mills Novelty machine?-- and that one which sold at auction also made by Carlo Loveri is a very complete match to this one in its materials and characteristic. Check Gindin's price guide, $40k is what they go for, but I understand there are lots of people on here with out that kind of knowledge or expertise. 

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It was well distinguished between the imported German Antonio Loveris and the Carlo Loveri labelled, which obviously had no consistent style either, if you compare the linked auction example.

One very important thing in violin business is that there’s a world of difference, especially valuewise, between „seen by a top dealer“ and „having a written certificate by a top expert“.

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3 hours ago, bowhunter said:

Why bother? Because the violin was seen by one of the top dealers in Chicago who said late 19th Century Italian, probably Puglisi or something along those lines then I saw another sold at auction with the same Mills Novelty label in it--same as this one, which is funny how some comment it is not from a Mills Novelty machine?-- and that one which sold at auction also made by Carlo Loveri is a very complete match to this one in its materials and characteristic. Check Gindin's price guide, $40k is what they go for, but I understand there are lots of people on here with out that kind of knowledge or expertise. 

There are a number of late 19th and early 20th century Naples makers and/or shop owners and/or plucked instrument makers who had violins made by others (Italian makers and makers elsewhere) to bear their labels. I always assumed this was so for Fabricatore, there is some evidence that Postiglione had orders for bodies filled in Germany in his later years, Cavalli's "Monteverdi" violins show various hands and some look very much like Degani shop fiddles in their edge work, etc, etc... and then of course Loveri. Some of these instruments are especially difficult to figure out as often  more that one source appears to have been used... and they may have come to these shops in the white or only partially assembled.  I've not heard of a Loveri of any type fetching what Mr Gindin quoted (although I suppose it's possible), but if you're convinced you have a prize, why not contact Dmitry through his website with some decent photos?

Good luck!

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3 hours ago, Blank face said:

One very important thing in violin business is that there’s a world of difference, especially valuewise, between „seen by a top dealer“ and „having a written certificate by a top expert“.

Well, I think the poster recognizes this. Instead of advertising it as a Puglisi, which I think was just a shot from the hip of the dealer's intuition, he identified it more closely as a Carlo LoveriHowever, "what is a Loveri" is the more pressing question considering the linked auction example is one imported and numbered No. 2130. Loveri was probably working from pre-fab boxes like Jeffrey Holmes has alluded. In the end, whether such instruments can be flipped and sold is a hard-to-answer question that I don't think can be answered on this forum. Whether it can be sold for 30-40k is a different discussion.  Though, I don't find anything wrong with the seller or dealer's practices or intentions and find both to be genuine people in the trade.

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Jeffrey Holmes, just curious, are you alluding to knowing more about pricing than Dimitri Gindin? He seems to be universally recognized as a very high-level expert around the entire world. BTW, how many of mid to late 19th Century Italian makers were using wood from Germany? Lots, and they are still over $100K. 

And Mr. Blank Face's comment is a bit odd... "a world of a difference between seen by a top dealer and having a certificate for it?"  Come on. The only difference is paying for a certificate vs not paying for one.  And look at the photos from the auction listing, where one was sold as Carlo Loveri, the two violins are brothers. 

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15 minutes ago, Violino121 said:

"a world of a difference between seen by a top dealer and having a certificate for it?"  Come on. The only difference is paying for a certificate vs not paying for one.  

Charles Beare once told me in a Vienna hotel “There is no such thing as Charles Beare says, there is only Charles Beare wrote”

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Jacob Saunders,  Great! That is because Charles Beare does not want to be quoted inaccurately. However, that does not change the context of the situation one bit. And have you even taken time yourself to look at the photos from the Ingles & Hayday auction? The two instruments were very obviously made in the same workshop. There are just far too many people on this forum nowadays who get off on bashing other people because they (a) don't know enough themselves or (b) are just that type of person. Take the time to do some research, then express an opinion. 

P.s. If anyone out there has an instrument such as this one for $0.35-$0.40 as one person put it, I am happy to buy every one of them from you, and will even pay for the shipping. 

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29 minutes ago, Violino121 said:

Haha! Somone calls people out on their incivility and now the person must be related? interesting logic. And supposing that were the case, would it change the situation? How? Would it make what is being said any less true? Interesting logic there...

Or if the IP addresses are an exact match........

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3 hours ago, Violino121 said:

Jeffrey Holmes, just curious, are you alluding to knowing more about pricing than Dimitri Gindin? He seems to be universally recognized as a very high-level expert around the entire world. BTW, how many of mid to late 19th Century Italian makers were using wood from Germany? Lots, and they are still over $100K. 

I didn't "allude" to anything except my own experience(s).  I said " I've not heard of a Loveri of any type fetching what Mr Gindin quoted (although I suppose it's possible)"  I also suggested he be contacted with photos.  Clear enough? I believe most would consider this a helpful suggestion.

I know, have known, and have respected Dmitry for many years (since the early '90s)... and knew his father as well.  You misspelled Dmitry's name, BTW.

...and nowhere did I refer to the origin of the wood itself in relation to value.

Do you have any other snarky comments regarding my post?

Also, in case other members are following, your IP address AND your rather distinct email name match Bowhunter. Only the email server itself varies. I believe you are disingenuous at best.

 

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