Chai Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 Hi, I saw a violin for sale titled as: "Cute Italian Violin by Carlo Loveri, c.1880, Naples. 356mm. Has to screw holes where the bridge goes because a lot of violins from this maker were put into the automated violin playing machines. Needs those tiny screw holes fixed there and in the scroll box as well as needs a new fingerboard and Center seam reglued in top." The seller claims that when it's restored it should be worth between $20,000 and $35,000. Can anyone help identify the authenticity, quality and value of this instrument based on the pictures attached? It's been made available for $4,000. Is that a reasonable price for this instrument? Does it make sense to invest in the hopes of flipping it? Thanks in advance!
Wood Butcher Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 If it was really going to be worth 20,000 - 35,000, do you think they would want to sell it for 4,000?
Shelbow Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 I do appreciate the craquelure though.
Blank face Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 From the photos it looks as if it could be one of these manufactured South Italian violins from this period. They have the particular hard and crackled varnish, are often very heavy and are usually selling in good condition in the low thousands, not at 20 or 36 K, that's fantasy. I have no idea what's the reason for this screws, and before estimating restoration costs it's necessary to know what's going on inside beneath them. If the seller claims that "a lot of them" were put into playing machines it should be possible to find more of them with that attachment, what's not the case to my knowledge.
Blank face Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 7 minutes ago, uguntde said: It is worth nothing. Fire wood. Heating costs in Germany are actually extremely high, but maybe not to that extend.
Chai Posted November 30, 2022 Author Report Posted November 30, 2022 1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said: If it was really going to be worth 20,000 - 35,000, do you think they would want to sell it for 4,000? Well possibly, it's a tricky market and could take years to sell a violin of thus nature. If he's selling for 4k and it costs another 4k to fully restore and I manage independent to sell at 15k it appears reasonable.
Blank face Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Chai said: Well possibly, it's a tricky market and could take years to sell a violin of thus nature. If he's selling for 4k and it costs another 4k to fully restore and I manage independent to sell at 15k it appears reasonable. With an anual inflation rate of 10% you could have reached that point within 20 years or so. Edited November 30, 2022 by Blank face Wrong calculator
jacobsaunders Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 Alternatively it could be a gruesomely tortured Mittenwald Verleger fiddle, beyond resuscitation
GeorgeH Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: Alternatively it could be a gruesomely tortured Mittenwald Verleger fiddle, beyond resuscitation That is what it looks like to me.
Blank face Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 Loveri was a firm producing mandolins, it’s well possible that they ordered Mittenwald violins, maybe applied their own varnish. A closer look at the inside work could give a clue.
The Violin Beautiful Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 Antonio Loveri was a label used by the Tonk Bothers firm for some German violins they imported. Not sure if this is related to that line or not. Edit: Here is another violin labeled Carlo Loveri: https://ingleshayday.com/notable-sales-instrument/a-violin-by-carlo-loveri/
fragslap Posted November 30, 2022 Report Posted November 30, 2022 Roy Ehrhardt's "Violin Identification and Price Guide" reports that in 1930 Loveri violins were sold by Tonk Brothers for between $3.80 and $13.50.
billschettler Posted December 1, 2022 Report Posted December 1, 2022 The bridge inserts and lower saddle show that this was in a Mills Violano mechanical violin. It is a player piano with a mechanical violin assembly bolted to the violin.
Strad O Various Jr. Posted December 1, 2022 Report Posted December 1, 2022 $2000 at auction, so the $4000 price is pretty high even if its real https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/price-history/?Maker_ID=2373
Shelbow Posted December 1, 2022 Report Posted December 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: $2000 at auction, so the $4000 price is pretty high even if its real https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/price-history/?Maker_ID=2373 This is 22 years ago though. Markets have gone crazy since then.
Strad O Various Jr. Posted December 1, 2022 Report Posted December 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, Shelbow said: This is 22 years ago though. Markets have gone crazy since then. 32 years so yes you have a point
Shelbow Posted December 1, 2022 Report Posted December 1, 2022 39 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said: 32 years so yes you have a point Oh yes my maths head not working
Blank face Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 13 hours ago, billschettler said: The bridge inserts and lower saddle show that this was in a Mills Violano mechanical violin. It is a player piano with a mechanical violin assembly bolted to the violin. This sort of mechanic would require a completely different fingerboard (resp. no board), so it's very unlikely that the OP violin was part of such a machine. And yes, the I & H example is the only one to find online, but there's also no prove that it's a genuine one. As long as this is possible to say about violins which were sold by a dealing company and could have been supplied by different sources.
Wood Butcher Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 This is the problem, where there are no clear reference examples, known to be correct. I do not know what the violin is.
Shelbow Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 The OP could send pictures to Ingles and Hayday via their online form and see what they say.
jacobsaunders Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 25 minutes ago, Shelbow said: The OP could send pictures to Ingles and Hayday via their online form and see what they say. Why bother?
Shelbow Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 33 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: Why bother? Well if they have had an instrument from that maker in the past then they can probably clarify the situation pretty quickly for the OP. We can probably know the answer already, but if they wanted further clarification.
jacobsaunders Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Shelbow said: Well if they have had an instrument from that maker in the past then they can probably clarify the situation pretty quickly for the OP. We can probably know the answer already, but if they wanted further clarification. They will have seen plenty of Mittenwald Verlger violins, I suppose that's true
Shelbow Posted December 2, 2022 Report Posted December 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: They will have seen plenty of Mittenwald Verlger violins, I suppose that's true yes the truth will come out swiftly.
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