CITES pernambuco update

[JacksonMaberry]

4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Here's a different perspective on the situation from someone who has been highly active in the International Pernambuco Conservation Initiative, and the planting of pernambuco trees:

He thinks that the pernambuco problem is insignificant, but that interests in Brazil are trying to make a big deal out of it in order to appear that they are seriously cracking down on deforestation, while drawing attention away from the vastly larger and more profitable harvesting of other rain forest woods. The money Brazil makes from pernambuco is trivial, compared to the massive amounts of money the Brazilian "mafia" makes from the illegal harvesting of woods like ipe and mahogany.

Supposedly, most of this endangered wood is consumed domestically within Brazil by the construction industry anyway, so the conspicuous effort to limit international trade is mostly window dressing.

I could imagine this being the case. Would definitely like to read some kind of investigative journalism on this, could be Pulitzer material.

[martin swan]

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Here's a different perspective on the situation from someone who has been highly active in the International Pernambuco Conservation Initiative, and the planting of pernambuco trees:

He thinks that the pernambuco problem is insignificant, but that interests in Brazil are trying to make a big deal out of it in order to appear that they are seriously cracking down on deforestation, while drawing attention away from the vastly larger and more profitable harvesting of other rain forest woods. The money Brazil makes from pernambuco is trivial, compared to the massive amounts of money the Brazilian "mafia" makes from the illegal harvesting of woods like ipe and mahogany.

 

It's a nice theory and I also went through that thought process, but the actors in each scenario are very different people, and now I'm not sure it's that joined up ... 

It also overlooks the fact that pau-brasil is Brazil's national tree, and of huge cultural importance to a lot of Brazilians.The country is named after the tree, and there have been massive conservation efforts and replanting initiatives from within Brazil which are unrelated to bow-making.

If anyone wants to get a Brazilian perspective, the open letter from FunBrazil (National Pau-Brasil Foundation) to CITES makes very interesting reading.

https://www.martinswanviolins.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/English-OPEN-LETTER-TO-CITES-FROM-FUNBRASIL.pdf

[David Burgess]

14 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It also overlooks the fact that pau-brasil is Brazil's national tree, and of huge cultural importance to a lot of Brazilians.The country is named after the tree, ....

Do you suppose this has anything to do with Brasilwood being chosen as the "posterboy" for this latest conservation effort, desipite it being a miniscule part of illegal logging?

[JacksonMaberry]

Are there any similar initiatives for spruce in the US and Europe? It's in a dangerous state as well, but I haven't heard much about it outside of forestry channels.

[martin swan]

21 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Do you suppose this has anything to do with Brasilwood being chosen as the "posterboy" for this latest conservation effort, desipite it being a miniscule part of illegal logging?

I think we're at cross purposes  I doubt that anyone in Brazil thinks about the two things at the same time.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Pau-brasil was put on Appendix II fifteen years ago, well before Bolsonaro and his reckless relaxation of environmental laws. 

This tree has been the subject of major conservation effort for at least 50 years, though that doesn't seem to be widely known or acknowledged outside of Brazil.

[martin swan]

16 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Are there any similar initiatives for spruce in the US and Europe? It's in a dangerous state as well, but I haven't heard much about it outside of forestry channels.

I think it will come, maple too.

But it's a very different kind of crisis since the species is spread over so many countries which have different population levels and different degrees of concern ... with Pau-brasil there is only Brazil.

 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

Just now, martin swan said:

I think it will come, maple too.

But it's a very different kind of crisis since the species is spread over so many countries which have different population levels and different degrees of concern ...

 

Absolutely, important distinction.

[GoPractice]

Not being lazy ( not offering links, ) but would like others to examine the phenomenon of the treatment of Environmentalists as they are a subset of those interested in the sustainability of the earth's materials. For Journalists, journalism, for Environmentalists and environmental studies, can turn out to be a dangerous careers - for many not even a career.

Committing towards alternate materials soon.

[Woodland]

Now that one of the more concerning blockades has been avoided (for the time being) it will be interesting to see where we go from here in the coming months and years. I've noticed that retail prices for some master American-made pernambuco bows have appeared to have doubled in recent months, from $3,500-$4,000 for a silver/ebony violin bow to $6,000-$7,000. Being at the retail end of the market, I'm also wondering how long the current pernambuco supply is going to last for mass-produced Chinese student bows, and are the costs going to skyrocket for those? Carbon fiber is a much more viable option at the educational level, especially for something under $400 USD. Our shop only has one stateside supplier for IPE violin bows (at present) until the Brazilian shops can get the supply chain running again, I'm looking forward to auditioning more of those. I hope the industry continues to move forward with alternatives, such the use of tonkin cane, and hope those can be produced cost-effectively for the student market.

[JacksonMaberry]

4 minutes ago, Woodland said:

Now that one of the more concerning blockades has been avoided (for the time being) it will be interesting to see where we go from here in the coming months and years. I've noticed that retail prices for master American-made pernambuco bows have appeared to have doubled in recent months, from $3,500-$4,000 for a silver/ebony violin bow to $6,000-$7,000. Being at the retail end of the market, I'm also wondering how long the current pernambuco supply is going to last for mass-produced Chinese student bows, and are the costs going to skyrocket for those? Carbon fiber is a much more viable option at the educational level, especially for something under $400 USD. Our shop only has one stateside supplier for IPE violin bows (at present) until the Brazilian shops can get the supply chain running again, I'm looking forward to auditioning more of those. I hope the industry continues to move forward with alternatives, such the use of tonkin cane, and hope those can be produced cost-effectively for the student market.

Agreed about cane bows, I'm really impressed with what I've seen. Glad Mohr is bringing his considerable skill to bear on this. I think DB pointed this out somewhere, but the Ipe situation is one to watch too, as it's being heavily exploited but there's less scrutiny on it. 

I'd favor barring the flow of pernambuco to mass production. A good way to shepherd the rare resources would be to limit it's sale to artisanal manufacture. Impossible to do, probably. 

I'd be interested to see how new densified wood products could be employed. I have tested samples of sonowood walnut and BlackwoodTek for density and Lucci, and the latter scored well. I am not a bowmaker though. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

21 minutes ago, Woodland said:

Now that one of the more concerning blockades has been avoided (for the time being) it will be interesting to see where we go from here in the coming months and years. I've noticed that retail prices for master American-made pernambuco bows have appeared to have doubled in recent months, from $3,500-$4,000 for a silver/ebony violin bow to $6,000-$7,000. Being at the retail end of the market, I'm also wondering how long the current pernambuco supply is going to last for mass-produced Chinese student bows, and are the costs going to skyrocket for those? Carbon fiber is a much more viable option at the educational level, especially for something under $400 USD. Our shop only has one stateside supplier for IPE violin bows (at present) until the Brazilian shops can get the supply chain running again, I'm looking forward to auditioning more of those. I hope the industry continues to move forward with alternatives, such the use of tonkin cane, and hope those can be produced cost-effectively for the student market.

You've frankly got to be a little bit dense if you think any of those mass produced  Chinese bows are made using genuine Pernambuco, the brazilwood bows aren't genuine either

[Woodland]

49 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Agreed about cane bows, I'm really impressed with what I've seen. Glad Mohr is bringing his considerable skill to bear on this. I think DB pointed this out somewhere, but the Ipe situation is one to watch too, as it's being heavily exploited but there's less scrutiny on it. 

I'd favor barring the flow of pernambuco to mass production. A good way to shepherd the rare resources would be to limit it's sale to artisanal manufacture. Impossible to do, probably. 

I'd be interested to see how new densified wood products could be employed. I have tested samples of sonowood walnut and BlackwoodTek for density and Lucci, and the latter scored well. I am not a bowmaker though. 

As far as the mass-produced pernambuco bows, I'm with you on that. There doesn't appear to be enough legitimate wood left to supply that end of the industry. If and when the pernambuco begins to move out of Brazil again, it will likely be in a much more limited and controlled fashion, I'm doubtful that there would be enough wood to supply large-scale Chinese bow factories.

It's safe to say that we've all seen this coming for the past 25 years or so, at least we currently have other options with more on the way. For the professional level musicians who insist there is no substitute for a high-quality pernambuco bow, I would think and hope that there are currently enough of those bows in circulation to supply the need.

[JacksonMaberry]

2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

You've frankly got to be a little bit dense if you think any of those mass produced  Chinese bows are made using genuine Pernambuco, the brazilwood bows aren't genuine either

There are in fact bows made of Paubrasilia echinata coming out of China. I've scoped endgrain on several. Not saying there aren't plenty of fakes, but that there is a surprising volume of actual paubrasilia entering and exiting China is not up for debate. 

[martin swan]

Since this last CITES Panama conference ipé is now on Appendix II, and only finished bows can leave South America unless the wood can be shown to originate from sustainably managed plantations.

[Michael Szyper]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:09 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Are there any similar initiatives for spruce in the US and Europe? It's in a dangerous state as well, but I haven't heard much about it outside of forestry channels.

Spruce for sure is not in a dangerous state in central Europe due to the demand, since the vast majority of forests are pure spruce forests. What may eventually erase spruce in central europe are the climatic changes.

[JacksonMaberry]

Just now, Michael Szyper said:

Spruce for sure is not in a dangerous state in central Europe due to the demand, since the vast majority of forests are pure spruce forests. What may eventually erase spruce in central europe are the climatic changes.

Yes, that was my point. Not overuse to be sure, but the climatic changes, and specifically how they are enabling more and more breeding cycles of bark beetles, which take advantage of water and heat stressed trees; also fires. It's not looking good. 

[Woodland]

17 hours ago, martin swan said:

Since this last CITES Panama conference ipé is now on Appendix II, and only finished bows can leave South America unless the wood can be shown to originate from sustainably managed plantations.

From what I understand Ipe isn't even a specific species, rather a generic term that has been applied to a number of species, as "brazilwood" has for economy bows. While the quality of one bow blank to the next can vary greatly, the fact that Ipe isn't a specific species would make it even more challenging. Good bows or not, Ipe doesn't appear to be much more than a very short-term alternative. Upon trying to gather more information on Ipe, I came across a decking supplier that is promoting the use of black locust over Ipe, citing sustainability and durability issues. Interestingly enough, there's a viol bow maker in Europe makes bows from "black locust". I understand a viol bow and a modern violin bow are quite different, but I'd be interested to see if that would even come close to being a viable alternative.

[martin swan]

4 minutes ago, Woodland said:

From what I understand Ipe isn't even a specific species, rather a generic term that has been applied to a number of species,

I believe it was "trumpet trees" as a whole that were put on appendix II