Interesting violin labelled Koueppers

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I don’t of course know what it’s worth to you, but if you walked into my place wanting to sell it to me (as is) the haggling would start at around €300

 

1 hour ago, Joris said:

And for around what price would you try to sell it after you would have invisibly mended the soundpost crack and other cracks?

 

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

none of your business

 

1 hour ago, reg said:

Go on Jacob

Spill the beans!

He already did, IMHO.  Jacob's secret is out.  He's also in the rubbish business.  I've suspected this for years.  When he says something nasty against DIY rubbish repairs, he's protecting his bottom line.  

[jacobsaunders]

21 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

 

 

 

He already did, IMHO.  Jacob's secret is out.  He's also in the rubbish business.  I've suspected this for years.  When he says something nasty against DIY rubbish repairs, he's protecting his bottom line.  

Oh wonderful, a proper rubbish-queen can explain cost-oriented commercial calculation to them

[Blank face]

So if there is definitely no wood added as it appears to be now a possible explanation could be that the violin started with a scribed double line instead of an inlaid purfling, and the real was added later. This could be checked with UV light. There should be some touch up be visible.

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

He's also in the rubbish business. 

I would not describe this violin exactly as rubbish. Rubbish production started appr. half a century after this was made.

Otherwise I wouldn’t offer anything before I’d be sure what is really going on here.

[Blank face]

8 hours ago, Mel S. said:

14” is 35,56 mm, normal full size body length.

Thanks. I find it usually more helpful and precise to give metric measurements than to look for conversion scales.

[Shelbow]

I quite like the look of the violin overall

 

 

[reg]

Violadamore have you an opinion on this Violin?

Jacob says Saxon which I accept, but it seems to go against everything he has taught us about Markies? ...apart from the very pronounced 'delta' !

[Delabo]

1 hour ago, reg said:

Violadamore have you an opinion on this Violin?

Jacob says Saxon which I accept, but it seems to go against everything he has taught us about Markies? ...apart from the very pronounced 'delta' !

Your violin is not "the usual" late 19th century violin, its more likely circa 1800, and therefore not made in the same way. But the only things that seems to depart from the "usual" is the one piece bottom rib, which is obviously harder to implement using the BOB method, but apparently not impossible, and maybe also the shiny black purfling. It would be interesting to know what the shiny purfling is made from.

[jacobsaunders]

5 hours ago, reg said:

Violadamore have you an opinion on this Violin?

She has already characterised it as “rubbish” (wrongly in my view)

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, reg said:

Violadamore have you an opinion on this Violin?

Jacob says Saxon which I accept, but it seems to go against everything he has taught us about Markies? ...apart from the very pronounced 'delta' !

"Markie", or "the usual" implies a post-1870 trade fiddle made for export.  This isn't "the usual".   As Jacob said, it's a Saxon violin from the early 19th. century, probably made for local use.  I'm still examining the photos, trying to figure out how much it was repaired or messed around with.

How does it sound?  The sound will be a major part of the possible value of a nameless German fiddle like this.  Can any inscriptions be seen inside of it?  Have any photos of the inside? 

[martin swan]

OK here's an oddball theory ... based on the fact that to my eye the wood between the purfling and the scribe line is new on the back but uninterrupted on the table.

How about it's a composite. Someone needed a back and all they had was too small so they added some wood. Then they scribed a line in the table to. make it look all the same.

This theory would be easily disproved if the purfling matches, but I can't see well enough in the photos.

[Violadamore]

6 minutes ago, martin swan said:

OK here's an oddball theory ... based on the fact that to my eye the wood between the purfling and the scribe line is new on the back but uninterrupted on the table.

How about it's a composite. Someone needed a back and all they had was too small so they added some wood. Then they scribed a line in the table to. make it look all the same.

This theory would be easily disproved if the purfling matches, but I can't see well enough in the photos.

Nah, it's not an oddball theory.  You're pretty much mainstream, around here. 

It might be composite, but I agree that better photos are needed. 

[Spelman]

Gotta say that the wood on the back looked similar but didn't seem to entirely match up?

Cool looking fiddle!

[Delabo]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

OK here's an oddball theory ... based on the fact that to my eye the wood between the purfling and the scribe line is new on the back but uninterrupted on the table.

How about it's a composite. Someone needed a back and all they had was too small so they added some wood. Then they scribed a line in the table to. make it look all the same.

This theory would be easily disproved if the purfling matches, but I can't see well enough in the photos.

Where are you seeing new wood?

[martin swan]

the whole c-bout area between the purfling and the scribe line.

Above the corner is a bit suspicious too - it's very easy to fake up maple flame and yet the area just above the corner is too light.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

42 minutes ago, martin swan said:

the whole c-bout area between the purfling and the scribe line.

Above the corner is a bit suspicious too - it's very easy to fake up maple flame and yet the area just above the corner is too light.

This is sounding like another conspiracy theory, its just a violin, even if wood was added it wouldn't change the value of the violin, which is going to have more to do with how well it is restored and how it sounds

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

the whole c-bout area between the purfling and the scribe line.

Above the corner is a bit suspicious too - it's very easy to fake up maple flame and yet the area just above the corner is too light.

This makes a lot of sense to me, too. A bit like what I tried to describe earlier. Maybe some areas are replaced around the C bouts, others original, and the purfling renewed.. Not matching plates could be an explanation. And as I wrote, UV light possibly could tell a bit, as long as not the whole fiddle is overcoated to disguise the alterations.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

This is sounding like another conspiracy theory, its just a violin, even if wood was added it wouldn't change the value of the violin, which is going to have more to do with how well it is restored and how it sounds

I have nothing to say about value or attribution. I'm just looking at the violin and trying to understand what I see from a structural point of view. It's a fun puzzle.

But on a general point I would say that major alterations to dimensions are a very significant issue in establishing value.

 

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

The sound will be a major part of the possible value of a nameless German fiddle like this.  

I thought we had left behind the reasoning about sound related value since the involuntary demission of Danube Fiddler.

A nameless Vogtlandish (not German or Germanic) fiddle has a value related to condition and general appearance, the sound might be one person’s owl, the other’s nightingale (old German saying).

[Strad O Various Jr.]

19 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I thought we had left behind the reasoning about sound related value since the involuntary demission of Danube Fiddler.

A nameless Vogtlandish (not German or Germanic) fiddle has a value related to condition and general appearance, the sound might be one person’s owl, the other’s nightingale (old German saying).

I was told by violin expert Tom Metzler that violins are not generally priced on tone, but violins under $5000 can be priced with tone as a factor, but not more valuable violins, I would think this violin might fall under $5000, and this was over ten years ago so that $5000 might be $7000 or $8000 today

[Blank face]

17 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I was told by violin expert Tom Metzler that violins are not generally priced on tone, but violins under $5000 can be priced with tone as a factor, but not more valuable violins, I would think this violin might fall under $5000, and this was over ten years ago so that $5000 might be $7000 or $8000 today

I recall that there was a 10 or 20 pager discussing such opinions, and I don’t think we need another.

[Wood Butcher]

14 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I recall that there was a 10 or 20 pager discussing such opinions, and I don’t think we need another.

Go on, you know you want to!!

[Shelbow]

2 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Go on, you know you want to!!

Just in time for Christmas!

[Wood Butcher]

2 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Just in time for Christmas!

Everyone loves a Christmas argument!

But on a more serious note, I do agree with @BlankFace. People are coming from such entrenched views, that any meaningful discussion is futile, just descending into insults.

[Shelbow]

32 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Everyone loves a Christmas argument!

But on a more serious note, I do agree with @BlankFace. People are coming from such entrenched views, that any meaningful discussion is futile, just descending into insults.

Sometimes these types of discussion go better in person.