Interesting violin labelled Koueppers

[reg]

Hello all, I'd appreciate help on this Violin please

See here a  violin with some features such as BOB, through one piece bottom rib, scroll cut to the bitter end inside, delicate scroll with rounded eye.

The purfling has 6 strands, but the inside one is drawn on and the edges rounded off 

It has deeply indented corner blocks with the lining cut flush with the edge

Scroll grafted

i have attached a word document - hope it will open

Cuypers.docx

[palousian]

Your document doesn't open, and this inquiry definitely needs images.

[jacobsaunders]

2 minutes ago, palousian said:

Your document doesn't open, and this inquiry definitely needs images.

It opens if you are logged in

The body looks like it has been largened, which naturally obliterates any features to recognise, and the scroll looks Saxon, but I'm no expert on Dutch stuff, so I look forwards to someone commenting who is

[Shelbow]

Merry Christmas all

 

 

[Blank face]

In my eyes it looks like a rather nice Klingenthal region from the ca 1800 period. One piece lower ribs are rare at these but exist. If I should drop a name, I would say Hoyer.

[Brad Dorsey]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

…The body looks like it has been largened…

What do you see that suggests this?

[jacobsaunders]

33 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

What do you see that suggests this?

You can’t see it so well on Shelbow’s pictures, but if you open reg’s word document, you will see what appears to be a joint, all the way around a couple of mm inside the purfling, which I could only explain as somebody having enlarged the fiddle

[deans]

I suppose it could have been enlarged, but I have never seen an instrument enlarged by an equal amount all around the outline. I'm thinking an old wider purfling channel was filled in and new purfling added. 

[Blank face]

7 hours ago, deans said:

I suppose it could have been enlarged, but I have never seen an instrument enlarged by an equal amount all around the outline. I'm thinking an old wider purfling channel was filled in and new purfling added. 

I have no idea how this should have been done (purfling channel filled), and for which reason. It would be interesting to know the actual Lob.

[Delabo]

How would it be technically possible to enlarge a violin all around its circumference? Its hard to see because of the resolution,  but the grain of what would be the added wood appears to match the grain of the main body. This can best be seen at the back corner with grain clearly running across the purfling to the outside edge. I believe it can also be see on the front as the grain runs upward at the corners. Would these pictures not indicate that the extra line is a  scribed line?

[jacobsaunders]

17 minutes ago, Delabo said:

How would it be technically possible to enlarge a violin all around its circumference? Its hard to see because of the resolution,  but the grain of what would be the added wood appears to match the grain of the main body. This can best be seen at the back corner with grain clearly running across the purfling to the outside edge. I believe it can also be see on the front as the grain runs upward at the corners. Would these pictures not indicate that the extra line is a  scribed line?

I agree that it’s a mystery. One could just as well ask why someone would scribe a line all the way around the edge a couple of mm inside the purfling? Perhaps the OP can shed some light

[Blank face]

38 minutes ago, Delabo said:

How would it be technically possible to enlarge a violin all around its circumference? Its hard to see because of the resolution,  but the grain of what would be the added wood appears to match the grain of the main body. This can best be seen at the back corner with grain clearly running across the purfling to the outside edge. I believe it can also be see on the front as the grain runs upward at the corners. Would these pictures not indicate that the extra line is a  scribed line?

What you’re thinking that it’s grain (or flame?) looks to me painted on. The belly grain lines don’t match the edges I my eyes, but I agree that we need better and more detailed photos.

The technique to add new edges and purfling as one piece (without half-edging) is called Ungarisch, I.e. Hungarian, for some unknown reason, but it stops usually at the inner purfling.

[reg]

Thank you Shelbow

The back is exactly 14" and the lower bout 8"

The flaming is genuine and goes right to the edge

What pics shall I redo?

[Mel S.]

To me it looks like an ornament but maybe someone tried to do a double purfling and stopped after carving the first line.

[Blank face]

18 minutes ago, reg said:

Thank you Shelbow

The back is exactly 14" and the lower bout 8"

The flaming is genuine and goes right to the edge

What pics shall I redo?

14” is 350 mm or slightly more, right? This seems to be still short. 
The irregularities of the “flames” like in the photo below, somehow zic-zac and not really in line makes it hard to believe for me that they are real. Do they move in different light? More close ups from such areas would be informative.

[Mel S.]

14” is 35,56 mm, normal full size body length.

[reg]

2 hours ago, Delabo said:

t indicate that the extra line is a  scribed line?

Yes the inside line is scribed

Under where the chin rest should be, it has worn off completely - perhaps by a hairy chin?

[reg]

See the drawn on purfling disappears where the chin rest should be

What is the round hole repair above the endpin?

[jacobsaunders]

Thank-you for the helpful new pictures.

I would like to know if the same identical wood continues either side of the supposed scribe line. The round filled in hole by the endpin will be from someone replacing an old fancy drop down saddle (often seen by old Saxons) and if I squint hard one can see a centre line notch on the back, which is also a Saxon feature.

I’m not sure what help you were looking for posting here, but you surely have an old Saxon violin, about 1800ish

[reg]

Thank you, Jacob - so obviously not a Cuypers

Would there be enough value to the violin to have that soundpost crack invisibly mended?

Looking in through the endpin it has been fully pinned along its length as also the Bass bar crack

The wood is identical on each side of the scribe, but very much lighter in colour

[jacobsaunders]

30 minutes ago, reg said:

 

Would there be enough value to the violin to have that soundpost crack invisibly mended?

 

I don’t of course know what it’s worth to you, but if you walked into my place wanting to sell it to me (as is) the haggling would start at around €300

[Mille regardz]

36 minutes ago, reg said:

Would there be enough value to the violin to have that soundpost crack invisibly mended?

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I don’t of course know what it’s worth to you, but if you walked into my place wanting to sell it to me (as is) the haggling would start at around €300

And for around what price would you try to sell it after you would have invisibly mended the soundpost crack and other cracks?

[jacobsaunders]

5 minutes ago, Joris said:

And for around what price would you try to sell it after you would have invisibly mended the soundpost crack and other cracks?

none of your business

[reg]

Go on Jacob

Spill the beans!

[jacobsaunders]

28 minutes ago, reg said:

Go on Jacob

Spill the beans!

When buying an old fiddle, there is a lot to think about. In this case an old Saxon no-name fiddle with fake label and some fairly grave old injuries/damage/strange old repairs. The first question would be if it is worth restoring at all, it is vastly more than just a sound post crack. Then when you're finished and it’s been twice as much work as one expected, you can discover if it sounds any good or not, and if anyone wants it at all. You can then hang it in the cupboard, where it might hang for the next 30 years, so it’s hard to answer the question. Will they even still have Euros by the time I find someone who would consider buying it?