Tormek alternatives - any experience?

[baroquecello]

Looking for old tools at flee markets has become a little bit of an obsession for me lately. I'm having a lot of fun trying to refurbish old chisels and gouges. However, working with stones manually is quite labor intensive, time consuming and hard on the hands, so I've decided I want to get a wet grinder. The best known brand is ofcourse Tormek, and if I get one of those, I'd get the T8 (250MM stone). However, to me 700 Euros for a machine that is essentially just a motor turning a stone in a bath seems a little much, and I'm wondering if any of the cheaper alternatives like Güde, Reckord, Triton or even the super cheap Scheppach are any good. Does anyone here have any experence with these wet grinders?

[Mark Norfleet]

Rather than getting a wet grinder you might investigate using a conventional grinder with CBN wheels.  They can remove a lot of material pretty quickly with a pretty low risk of overheating while giving you a good place to start your final sharpening.  At that point doing the final honing by hand with stones is MUCH less work.

[Dave Slight]

If you are buying tools, where the edge is in a poor condition, a Tormek isn’t the best choice to remove so much material first.
The soft water stones will wear badly, and need to be trued afterwards.

For the initial grinding of bevels, what Mark has suggested, or if you can’t run to the CBN wheels, a grinder with friable stones is what you need.

After the bevels have been reground, you could then use a Tormek, but it seems a wild expense for a few old chisels and gouges.

[Urban Luthier]

I have a love hate relationship with my Tormek (Kind of wish I had gone the CBN route noted by Mark and Dave).

The Tormek offers great control for shaping gouges and knives. I have a heck of a time getting plane blades to register perfectly square - quite a bit of trial and error even with their fixture. LN blades are easier as they have parallel sides. Some Veritas blades are tapered making them more difficult to register square in the jig. Personally i don't like the leather wheel as it is very easy to dub the edges of any cutting tool. Although it does a nice job polishing the ends of pegs!

The Tormek is a marketed as a slow grinder - and it is indeed a very slow process if you need to remove a lot of metal (ie. changing the angle of a large plane blade. 

[ernym]

5 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Looking for old tools at flee markets has become a little bit of an obsession for me lately. I'm having a lot of fun trying to refurbish old chisels and gouges. However, working with stones manually is quite labor intensive, time consuming and hard on the hands, so I've decided I want to get a wet grinder. The best known brand is ofcourse Tormek, and if I get one of those, I'd get the T8 (250MM stone). However, to me 700 Euros for a machine that is essentially just a motor turning a stone in a bath seems a little much, and I'm wondering if any of the cheaper alternatives like Güde, Reckord, Triton or even the super cheap Scheppach are any good. Does anyone here have any experence with these wet grinders?

I own a Grizzly wet grinder and a Tormek T8. The Tormek wheels and jigs are interchangable. The Grizzly's motor is smaller than the Tormek. I think if you can justify buying a Tormek T8 you will be better off in the long run.The build quality is much better. That said I like having two wet grinders. I keep a Knife Grinders of Austrailia 80 grit CBN wheel on the Grizzly and a Tormek Fine Diamond wheel on the T8.

The KG 80 Grit CBN can be run wet or dry and quickly regrinds damaged or old chisels and gouges. Then a few minutes on the Tormek Diamond and leather honing wheels and your done. I just sold off my Shapton stones because I no longer need them. Nothing can be more simple and efficient, especially if you enjoy restoring old edge tools. 

Buying a knock off wet grinder is a good way to get started but I would invest in the KG 80 grit CBN wheel instead of the stone. The CBN doesn't wear down and need resurfacing so much less hassle there.

Everyone has their methods and for me this is the fastest and pain free way to sharp edges.

[JacksonMaberry]

+1 for a standard bench grinder with a CBN wheel. I've written a lot about CBN grinding here over the years, if you're interested. I spent more time and money than was necessary building a home made grinder with a variable speed control and a DC motor (for better torque curve than AC). I did this because I had never used CBN before and was still worried about grinding too hot. As it turns out, the massive CBN wheel grinds so cool even at top speed that I shouldn't have bothered with the pricey DC motor or expensive speed control unit. 

Personally, I just use a single 180 grit CBN wheel. They make them both coarser and finer, but this works fast enough for me even on badly damaged edges. Then it's on to the stones for a few quick passes on 1k, 6k and finally 10k. I now spend extremely little time sharpening and more time working, which is the goal. 

I dislike wet grinders because they are slow and messy. With CBN, wet grinding in my view is obsolete. Obviously you still have to mind your heat, but the difference between a CBN and a classic friable wheel is unbelievable until you've tried it. I only have to cool a piece in water if I am grinding an entirely new edge on a new tool, and I bet if I were using a coarser wheel I wouldn't have to at all.

[Davide Sora]

9 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Looking for old tools at flee markets has become a little bit of an obsession for me lately. I'm having a lot of fun trying to refurbish old chisels and gouges. However, working with stones manually is quite labor intensive, time consuming and hard on the hands, so I've decided I want to get a wet grinder. The best known brand is ofcourse Tormek, and if I get one of those, I'd get the T8 (250MM stone). However, to me 700 Euros for a machine that is essentially just a motor turning a stone in a bath seems a little much, and I'm wondering if any of the cheaper alternatives like Güde, Reckord, Triton or even the super cheap Scheppach are any good. Does anyone here have any experence with these wet grinders?

Each grinding wheel can probably be made to work, but there may be a lot of work to be done. So I wouldn't hesitate to follow the advice of anyone who recommends going directly with a Tormek (personally I'd prefer the T4 for the smaller wheel size) or a CBN, or rather both. When I was a beginner I took what you see in the photos (I'm a bit ashamed to show it...). I managed to get it to work and I am still using it after more than 30 years. However, CBN or Tormek would have been a better choice, I would have saved a lot of time and by now the money spent would have paid off. But they didn't exist in the 1980s.

 

[ernym]

When using the Tormek with a 10" CBN and their Diamond wheels there is NO mess. Both wheels need no resurfacing because the diameter stays the same size.

Slow?  Definitely not, once an edge is established a touch up takes only seconds. Any faster you'd need a genie in a bottle.

If using the stone then that can be a little more hassle, like stones they need to be re-flattened. Now that is messy compared to emptying a water trough.

Davide Tormek doesn't make Diamond wheels for the T4 yet only the T8.

 

[David Rosales]

Ok, so if I were to go with a standard bench grinder with a 180 CBN wheel, what specifications do you look for? The Lee Valley CBN wheel picture shows an 8 inch Rikon, currently on Rockler for $199 USD. 

https://www.rockler.com/rikon-80-805-8-slow-speed-bench-grinder?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqoibBhDUARIsAH2OpWgv6Gf1rrpTmJalHfDKVtkvLDiw6gU_cLMqbtJdUhodH9ri5nsm-8AaAifIEALw_wcB

Would the Hercules brand from Harbor Freight ($139 USD) work as well?

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-variable-speed-bench-grinder-with-led-work-light-57285.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12126402660&campaignid=12126402660&utm_content=135729849034&adsetid=135729849034&product=57285&store=3009&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqoibBhDUARIsAH2OpWgppBiMfgLLB9t82QuYQh79Xs_2cGyBV0yQRr3QxWV56l852VBsxP0aAr5bEALw_wcB

 

Would the Wolverine sharpening jig work with the smaller gouges used in violin making? 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/jigs-mounts-and-rests/52372-wolverine-basic-sharpening-jig?item=66B0440&utm_source=free_google_shopping&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=shopping_feed&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqoibBhDUARIsAH2OpWiic76IKdLRy2qCnZs8AiF4RoaVSUj1br2ljPS9HANRPRMcfl4trSEaAvt8EALw_wcB

 

[ernym]

That's quite the jig.

[JacksonMaberry]

I prefer a 6" wheel, as I don't use guides and so like a deeper hollow for registering to the stones for a longer period of time, but 8" is great too. 6" wheels are cheaper, if that's a consideration. I like the rikon grinders, and in general you want something well made to avoid runout as much as possible. The wheel ought to run true. Wood turners wonders supplies my favorite CBN wheels, and they include a special washer for mounting to help getting it run true since you can't "dress" a CBN. 

I don't know about the wolverine jig, never used it. I do my gouges differently, the only things I don't hollow grind, so someone else will have to comment. Depending on the dimensions of the gouge and the tool rest, you can grind most gouges directly on the tool rest with some practice. I like the veritas tools rest. 

[Steve Voigt]

2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I dislike wet grinders because they are slow and messy. With CBN, wet grinding in my view is obsolete. Obviously you still have to mind your heat, but the difference between a CBN and a classic friable wheel is unbelievable until you've tried it. I only have to cool a piece in water if I am grinding an entirely new edge on a new tool, and I bet if I were using a coarser wheel I wouldn't have to at all.

Agree with this 100%. One thing I'll add is that there's still a place for friable wheels, especially if you're restoring old tools, because friable wheels can be shaped. For wide/shallow incannel gouges or nos.12-18 hollows, I'll use a soft white wheel, 3/4" x 6", and shape it to the desired radius with a cheap diamond dresser. For narrower tools, I use a chainsaw grinding wheel. The backing flange from a 4-1/2" angle grinder makes a handy 5/8" to 7/8" adapter for these wheels.

But the important thing is, with a dry grinder, you can do both cbn and friable wheels...put one on each side. You have options. The best thing I can say about a wet grinder is that it's quiet, so you can put on some nice music while you waste a good chunk of your day, grinding at a snail's pace…

[ernym]

21 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

The best thing I can say about a wet grinder is that it's quiet, so you can put on some nice music while you waste a good chunk of your day, grinding at a snail's pace…

Too funny...and so not true but go ahead and beat your chest some more...

[JacksonMaberry]

49 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

Agree with this 100%. One thing I'll add is that there's still a place for friable wheels, especially if you're restoring old tools, because friable wheels can be shaped. For wide/shallow incannel gouges or nos.12-18 hollows, I'll use a soft white wheel, 3/4" x 6", and shape it to the desired radius with a cheap diamond dresser. For narrower tools, I use a chainsaw grinding wheel. The backing flange from a 4-1/2" angle grinder makes a handy 5/8" to 7/8" adapter for these wheels.

But the important thing is, with a dry grinder, you can do both cbn and friable wheels...put one on each side. You have options. The best thing I can say about a wet grinder is that it's quiet, so you can put on some nice music while you waste a good chunk of your day, grinding at a snail's pace…

Makes a ton of sense, thanks Steve.

[Steve Voigt]

31 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

Too funny...and so not true but go ahead and beat your chest some more...

Apologies for being flip and offending anyone who's a fan of wet grinders.

Snark aside though, I think the basic point is beyond dispute. A dry grinder with a stock grey wheel is much faster than a Tormek, and a CBN wheel widens the gap much more.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

1 minute ago, Steve Voigt said:

Apologies for being flip and offending anyone who's a fan of wet grinders.

Snark aside though, I think the basic point is beyond dispute. A dry grinder with a stock grey wheel is much faster than a Tormek, and a CBN wheel widens the gap much more.

They both have their merits, I'd say. I use both and wouldn't like to be without either.

[JacksonMaberry]

I don't think Steve was unkind, and knowing him I know that wasn't his intention in any case. Being that Steve is a person who makes extremely fine tools for a living, I'd give his opinion on matters pertaining to that more weight than my own or those of any instrument maker. We dabble by necessity, but it's his bread and butter. 

[ernym]

23 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

Apologies for being flip and offending anyone who's a fan of wet grinders.

Snark aside though, I think the basic point is beyond dispute. A dry grinder with a stock grey wheel is much faster than a Tormek, and a CBN wheel widens the gap much more.

No apology needed. I do use a CBN and it has changed the game. 

[Bodacious Cowboy]

8 hours ago, charliemaine said:

When using the Tormek with a 10" CBN and their Diamond wheels there is NO mess. Both wheels need no resurfacing because the diameter stays the same size.

Slow?  Definitely not, once an edge is established a touch up takes only seconds. Any faster you'd need a genie in a bottle.

If using the stone then that can be a little more hassle, like stones they need to be re-flattened. Now that is messy compared to emptying a water trough.

Davide Tormek doesn't make Diamond wheels for the T4 yet only the T8.

 

Charliemaine - Do you use your Tormek diamond wheel dry?

[ernym]

10 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Charliemaine - Do you use your Tormek diamond wheel dry?

I use the Diamond wheel wet and discovered today that they are now making Diamond wheels for the T4.

At the time I bought mine Knife Grinders of Austrailia was the only one making a CBN wheel for wet grinders but can also be used dry if preferred. The wheels fit Tormek and all the other knock off brands and cost less than the Tormek wheels. 

 

 

[Bodacious Cowboy]

54 minutes ago, charliemaine said:

I use the Diamond wheel wet and discovered today that they are now making Diamond wheels for the T4.

At the time I bought mine Knife Grinders of Austrailia was the only one making a CBN wheel for wet grinders but can also be used dry if preferred. The wheels fit Tormek and all the other knock off brands and cost less than the Tormek wheels. 

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Do you think the corrosion additive is necessary? It seems very expensive to buy, once the free sample that comes with the wheel runs out.

[ernym]

17 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Thanks for the reply. Do you think the corrosion additive is necessary? It seems very expensive to buy, once the free sample that comes with the wheel runs out.

If it helps the diamond wheel then I think it is worth it given the cost of the wheel but I really don't know if it is necessary, that's above my pay grade. I do use it and will buy more when I run out. I also use it on the CBN wheel.

[JacksonMaberry]

Cutter masters, a Canadian outfit that's been talked about here over the years, has some YouTube videos showing an interesting trick, visible right at the start of the video: 

 

Given the mass of those wheels, I'd imagine the sponge in tray is sufficient to cool and remove swarf.

[nathan slobodkin]

I have used the same 1940's vintage grinder since it was given to me when I was 14 year old. I insist on a single continuous hollow  ground bevel on all my tools and have always been able to accomplish that without any jigs by using my finger against the tool rest as a guide and not letting go of the tool until the grinding is done. As my hands are now somewhat battered by millions of repetitive motions this has become very uncomfortable especially on my largest gouges. I am currently setting up a new shop in my home and am very interested in the CBN wheels and also the Veritas tool guide and will be buying a new grinder to put them on.. Is any one  using this combination? From what I am reading the 1 1/2"wide wheels are recommended while the veritas will only accommodate 1" wheels.

[JacksonMaberry]

3 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I have used the same 1940's vintage grinder since it was given to me when I was 14 year old. I insist on a single continuous hollow  ground bevel on all my tools and have always been able to accomplish that without any jigs by using my finger against the tool rest as a guide and not letting go of the tool until the grinding is done. As my hands are now somewhat battered by millions of repetitive motions this has become very uncomfortable especially on my largest gouges. I am currently setting up a new shop in my home and am very interested in the CBN wheels and also the Veritas tool guide. Is any one  using this combination? From what I am reading the 1 1/2"wide wheels are recommended while the veritas will only acomedate 1" wheels.

Hey Nathan. I use the veritas rest and love it. They sell an aftermarket table that accommodates 1.5" wheels, which I bought. Still have the 1" table lying around, not sure what to do with it. The rest is easy to adjust, stays out, and feels secure. I recommend it without reservations.