Dave Slight Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 Recently, I was approached by a hobby maker who is having problems with a violin they are making. It is clear to me, that something is quite wrong with the Strad posters they have been using as a reference. I think we all know, that at times, there were some fairly glaring errors with these, as they went to print. Unfortunately, what might be clear to experienced makers, is not so for amateurs. I wondered if people might list any errors they have come across, which could help others from wasting their wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 The students in my summer class bought both popular very expensive kits of forms and templates. I can't remember the makers of either, but at the time five years or ago they were the leading examples, the first such sets on the market. Neither resembled the violin it was supposed to be in the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Jacoby Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 Mainly, the mistake of using the photos, especially with the pre-2015/6 posters, is made. the printed outline on the back is closer to accurate, although still not taken from the center of the rib, but from a plate. Memorably, my friend and I at VMSA made our Bros. Amati violas from that printed back outline though... and ended up with an instrument almost 1 cm too wide. Sounded great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 The "Lord Wilton" poster lists 17.7 mm as the belly arch height, but the photo and the arching outlines are more in the 14-15 mm range. The back arching listed as 15.2 might be closer, but still looks a mm or so higher than what the arching outlines and photo indicate. Length and some bout dimensions also don't all match up that well. Paper isn't metal... one has to wonder how much the posters can move around with humidity and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 Even the recent posers have issues - the measurements of the Guad viola published a year ago don't appear to match the printed ct scan. Many early posters the outline appears to be printed either too large or too small... What I do now is scan the poster, take the outline into a CAD app like ADSK Fusion, scale the outline to match the measurements, then trace the outline using 3 point curves. From there you can create an offset to create the mould shape. If the edges are worn you can compensate by adjusting the offset to compensate. The whole thing is a lot easier if there is a good CT scan of the central part of the rib structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Christopher Jacoby said: Sounded great. CHRIS, don't tell everyone that you can make great sounding instruments this way!! Wtf man?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 I think The Strad should start an Errata list for its posters. As for the kits Darnton mentioned I found a major error in the Messiah kit sold by International Violins. That was about 5 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 the strad poster of the Messiah outline doesn't match the CT scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Szyper Posted October 29, 2022 Report Share Posted October 29, 2022 55 minutes ago, Urban Luthier said: the strad poster of the Messiah outline doesn't match the CT scan. The poster is way too small as I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted October 30, 2022 Report Share Posted October 30, 2022 15 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said: The poster is way too small as I remember. Yep too small. From the ct scan it really looks like a g form but I could be wrong. Regardless the poster is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slight Posted November 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 This is perhaps one of their most popular posters. A lot of people may have been caught out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slight Posted November 1, 2022 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 On 10/29/2022 at 6:34 PM, Michael_Molnar said: I think The Strad should start an Errata list for its posters. There seem to be so many errors, this is a great idea. It’s not just The Strad, the British Violin book published by the BVMA had some significant errors in too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 I doubt there's much will to do it, but it would be marvelous if some of the pre CT posters could get redone with CT scans someday. I've often wondered that, if in the current era of crowdfunding and the like, we could as a community chip in and get more great instruments scanned. It's not just a matter of money, of course, but also permissions and the like, but as they say "many hands...". I'd definitely like to participate in any effort that democratizes access to useful data on instruments of note. At present, there is a decided disadvantage to aspiring luthiers outside of the wealthier countries, who are far less likely to encounter great fiddles in person. I think it would be of benefit to all of us and the trade in general if we worked to mitigate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 On 10/29/2022 at 11:27 AM, Urban Luthier said: Even the recent posers have issues - the measurements of the Guad viola published a year ago don't appear to match the printed ct scan. Many early posters the outline appears to be printed either too large or too small... Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter? And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, David Burgess said: Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter? And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not? I think these are important questions, and that we should be asking them of ourselves often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 I always thought Guarneris were too small anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, Don Noon said: I always thought Guarneris were too small anyway... Possibly, I suppose it depends, like everything else. Lots of high octane players out there enjoying smaller violins. I think @martin swanwrote something about this years ago, but I could be misremembering. Two of my favorite violins I've ever heard were 350 ish, an Andrea Guarneri and a Gennaro Gagliano. The spectacular Baron Knoop Serafin is 352, iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urban Luthier Posted November 1, 2022 Report Share Posted November 1, 2022 4 hours ago, David Burgess said: Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter? And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not? I wonder if those who strive to make exact copies rely on Strad posters as a reference? I think the errors can be problematic for amateurs and enthusiasts (I count myself in this group). if a poster has gross errors... say the width is stretched but the height is correct, or the stop length is printed incorrectly... It can be difficult to interpret the poster as a working drawing and even lead to an instrument that is difficult to setup correctly. As a whole I think the Strad poster programme has been very successful and the community is grateful for it, I just wish things were proofed a bit more carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 6 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said: Possibly, I suppose it depends, like everything else. Lots of high octane players out there enjoying smaller violins. I think @martin swanwrote something about this years ago, but I could be misremembering. Two of my favorite violins I've ever heard were 350 ish, an Andrea Guarneri and a Gennaro Gagliano. The spectacular Baron Knoop Serafin is 352, iirc I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size. Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated. But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization. Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes. One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 Just now, Marty Kasprzyk said: I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size. Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated. But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization. Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes. One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 17 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said: I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size. Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated. But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization. Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes. One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff. Yeah that's interesting. Above are just some observations, I haven't and wouldn't want to conclude anything from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFMartin Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 Is there a place on this site where one can download the correct Stradivari mold templates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, CFMartin said: Is there a place on this site where one can download the correct Stradivari mold templates? Pinned thread "Strad and other models database" or something like that, also @Peter K-Gs website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Szyper Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 15 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said: I doubt there's much will to do it, but it would be marvelous if some of the pre CT posters could get redone with CT scans someday. I've often wondered that, if in the current era of crowdfunding and the like, we could as a community chip in and get more great instruments scanned. It's not just a matter of money, of course, but also permissions and the like, but as they say "many hands...". I'd definitely like to participate in any effort that democratizes access to useful data on instruments of note. At present, there is a decided disadvantage to aspiring luthiers outside of the wealthier countries, who are far less likely to encounter great fiddles in person. I think it would be of benefit to all of us and the trade in general if we worked to mitigate that. It depends on the CT Scan quality, but money isn't the issue here IMO. Usually CT Scans in Germany cost around 100-200 Euros, so it is a fraction of the amount needed to get good photos. What I would rather prefer is crowdfunding for 3d printing of violins/parts. Technology nowadays is good enough to draw helpful information from that. If enough people would be interested, prices here could be affordable, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonMaberry Posted November 2, 2022 Report Share Posted November 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said: It depends on the CT Scan quality, but money isn't the issue here IMO. Usually CT Scans in Germany cost around 100-200 Euros, so it is a fraction of the amount needed to get good photos. What I would rather prefer is crowdfunding for 3d printing of violins/parts. Technology nowadays is good enough to draw helpful information from that. If enough people would be interested, prices here could be affordable, too. Let's discuss this when we talk next. I've been thinking about this a long time, and have had some good chats with others as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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