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Recently, I was approached by a hobby maker who is having problems with a violin they are making. It is clear to me, that something is quite wrong with the Strad posters they have been using as a reference.

I think we all know, that at times, there were some fairly glaring errors with these, as they went to print. Unfortunately, what might be clear to experienced makers, is not so for amateurs.

I wondered if people might list any errors they have come across, which could help others from wasting their wood.

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Mainly, the mistake of using the photos, especially with the pre-2015/6 posters, is made. the printed outline on the back is closer to accurate, although still not taken from the center of the rib, but from a plate.

Memorably, my friend and I at VMSA made our Bros. Amati violas from that printed back outline though... and ended up with an instrument almost 1 cm too wide.

Sounded great. 

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The "Lord Wilton" poster lists 17.7 mm as the belly arch height, but the photo and the arching outlines are more in the 14-15 mm range.  The back arching listed as 15.2 might be closer, but still looks a mm or so higher than what the arching outlines and photo indicate.  Length and some bout dimensions also don't all match up that well.  

Paper isn't metal... one has to wonder how much the posters can move around with humidity and age.

 

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Even the recent posers have issues - the  measurements of the  Guad viola published a year ago don't appear to match the printed ct scan. Many early posters the outline appears to be printed either too large or too small...

What I do now is scan the poster, take the outline into a CAD app like ADSK Fusion, scale the outline to match the measurements, then trace the outline using 3 point curves. From there you can create an offset to create the mould shape. If the edges are worn you can compensate by adjusting the offset to compensate. The whole thing is a lot easier if there is a good CT scan of the central part of the rib structure.

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On 10/29/2022 at 6:34 PM, Michael_Molnar said:

I think The Strad should start an Errata list for its posters. 

There seem to be so many errors, this is a great idea.


It’s not just The Strad, the British Violin book published by the BVMA had some significant errors in too.

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I doubt there's much will to do it, but it would be marvelous if some of the pre CT posters could get redone with CT scans someday. I've often wondered that, if in the current era of crowdfunding and the like, we could as a community chip in and get more great instruments scanned. It's not just a matter of money, of course, but also permissions and the like, but as they say "many hands...". I'd definitely like to participate in any effort that democratizes access to useful data on instruments of note. At present, there is a decided disadvantage to aspiring luthiers outside of the wealthier countries, who are far less likely to encounter great fiddles in person. I think it would be of benefit to all of us and the trade in general if we worked to mitigate that. 

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On 10/29/2022 at 11:27 AM, Urban Luthier said:

Even the recent posers have issues - the  measurements of the  Guad viola published a year ago don't appear to match the printed ct scan. Many early posters the outline appears to be printed either too large or too small...

Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter?

And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not?

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8 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter?

And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not?

I think these are important questions, and that we should be asking them of ourselves often. 

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8 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

I always thought Guarneris were too small anyway...

Possibly, I suppose it depends, like everything else. Lots of high octane players out there enjoying smaller violins. I think @martin swanwrote something about this years ago, but I could be misremembering. Two of my favorite violins I've ever heard were 350 ish, an Andrea Guarneri and a Gennaro Gagliano. The spectacular Baron Knoop Serafin is 352, iirc

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4 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Unless one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, why would it matter?

And even if one is claiming to make exact copies of a specific instrument, what will the potential buyer be using to assess whether that is accurate or not?

I wonder if those who strive to make exact copies rely on Strad posters as a reference? 

I think the errors can be problematic for amateurs and enthusiasts (I count myself in this group). if a poster has gross errors... say the width is stretched but the height is correct, or the stop length is printed incorrectly...  It can be difficult to interpret the poster as a working drawing and even lead to an instrument that is difficult to setup correctly.

As a whole I think the Strad poster programme has been very successful and the community is grateful for it, I just wish things were proofed a bit more carefully. 

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6 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Possibly, I suppose it depends, like everything else. Lots of high octane players out there enjoying smaller violins. I think @martin swanwrote something about this years ago, but I could be misremembering. Two of my favorite violins I've ever heard were 350 ish, an Andrea Guarneri and a Gennaro Gagliano. The spectacular Baron Knoop Serafin is 352, iirc

I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size.  Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated.  But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. 

Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization.  Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes.

One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff.

 

 

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Just now, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size.  Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated.  But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. 

Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization.  Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes.

One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I don't know of any systematic studies that show the influence of plate size.  Plate arch heights, shapes, thicknesses, wood properties etc. have all been investigated.  But for some reason the size always seems to be held constant. 

Nothing has also been done regarding string length optimization.  Strings today are much more advanced than the historic gut strings and there might be some benefits of making string length changes.

One great advantage of exactly copying the dimensions of old instruments is that you don't have to think about this stuff.

 

 

Yeah that's interesting. Above are just some observations, I haven't and wouldn't want to conclude anything from it. 

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15 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I doubt there's much will to do it, but it would be marvelous if some of the pre CT posters could get redone with CT scans someday. I've often wondered that, if in the current era of crowdfunding and the like, we could as a community chip in and get more great instruments scanned. It's not just a matter of money, of course, but also permissions and the like, but as they say "many hands...". I'd definitely like to participate in any effort that democratizes access to useful data on instruments of note. At present, there is a decided disadvantage to aspiring luthiers outside of the wealthier countries, who are far less likely to encounter great fiddles in person. I think it would be of benefit to all of us and the trade in general if we worked to mitigate that. 

It depends on the CT Scan quality, but money isn't the issue here IMO. Usually CT Scans in Germany cost around 100-200 Euros, so it is a fraction of the amount needed to get good photos. 

What I would rather prefer is crowdfunding for 3d printing of violins/parts. Technology nowadays is good enough to draw helpful information from that. If enough people would be interested, prices here could be affordable, too. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

It depends on the CT Scan quality, but money isn't the issue here IMO. Usually CT Scans in Germany cost around 100-200 Euros, so it is a fraction of the amount needed to get good photos. 

What I would rather prefer is crowdfunding for 3d printing of violins/parts. Technology nowadays is good enough to draw helpful information from that. If enough people would be interested, prices here could be affordable, too. 

 

Let's discuss this when we talk next. I've been thinking about this a long time, and have had some good chats with others as well. 

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