New chemical clues into Strad's "Magic" varnish

[Rue]

More clues:

https://phys.org/news/2022-10-chemical-clues-mystery-coating-stradivari.html

[MikeC]

Not much detail there, they found protein but we already knew that.  

[Michael_Molnar]

Right. Is the protein intentional or incidental? My little experiments with staining the ground introduce a protein unintentionally. Organic colorants often contain proteins. Another possibility is that the protein is used to protect and convey the stain colorant. Proteins are powerful preservatives. 

[ctanzio]

I am frequently amazed at how science writers begin their articles with significant, eye-catching conclusions, then present research evidence that does nothing to support those conclusions.

This is the antithesis of skepticism and the scientific method.

I guess if one does not lead off an article with click-bait, then one cannot be considered a serious 21st century reporter.

 

 

[Rue]

It's always sad when the headlines don't quite deliver.  

I tend to expect more from what one would think are also more reliable organizations.

 

Wait!  Unless physics.org is...is...IS...an influencer??? 

[MikeC]

I dislike the term influencer.  I think it gives them a false sense of self importance.  

[outofnames]

The link near the bottom goes to the actual abstract with a lot more detail, but the conclusion is the same…nobody is certain as to what he actually did.

Which begs the question, did Stradivari fully understand what he was doing or did he just like the color?

[Rue]

Just now, outofnames said:

....

Which begs the question, did Stradivari fully understand what he was doing or did he just like the color?

Heh.  Toni was one of the first influencers....

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, ctanzio said:

........a serious 21st century reporter.

Oooooh, look!  An oxymoron.     

[HoGo]

These scientists can analyze all day long and still there won't be generally accepted conclusion as all kinds of materials (glues, finishes etc.) could be contaminants during production or one of many later repairs. They can talk about what they found but never claim whose hand put it there and why...

[Don Noon]

What impressed me most was the length of the names of the equipment used for analysis.

[Michael_Molnar]

7 hours ago, HoGo said:

These scientists can analyze all day long and still there won't be generally accepted conclusion as all kinds of materials (glues, finishes etc.) could be contaminants during production or one of many later repairs. They can talk about what they found but never claim whose hand put it there and why...

Right. The issue of contaminants is important. For starters, we need to see a map laying out the distribution of the protein(s). We also need to identify the protein(s).

 

 

 

 

[ernym]

Simple...

Glue+Alum+300 Years Aging=Cellulose Degradation

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1179/sic.2002.47.s3.012?needAccess=true

Torrefaction+Immediate Aging=Cellulose Degradation

 Didn't one of Don's fiddles beat out a Strad?

 

Mystery Solved,...

 

 

[Don Noon]

5 hours ago, charliemaine said:

Didn't one of Don's fiddles beat out a Strad?

Yes... for power (with tone that's acceptable).  That's the easy part.  The tones were extremely different, and THAT'S where the mystery lies.

Degradation of cellulose is generally not the goal... it's the other, energy-absorbing components (hemicellulose, lignin) you'd like to remove and/or polymerize into something more rigid, while preserving the cellulose as much as possible.  Maybe... if more sound/power is the goal.  Torrefying seems to do that.  But shaping the sound to old Strads or the like is a different level of complexity with no known solution that I'm aware of.  But I do have ideas to test some day.

[John Harte]

8 hours ago, Michael_Molnar said:

Right. The issue of contaminants is important. For starters, we need to see a map laying out the distribution of the protein(s). We also need to identify the protein(s)

I think that this and Mike's earlier comments are well worth noting.

I have tried to suggest to a couple of the Arvedi Lab researchers, including one of the co authors of this latest article, that the protein presence may not be the consequence of a discrete protein size application but rather to do with wood and varnish colouration.  They are still fixated on the former but hopefully in time it will dawn on them that there are possible alternatives that may be worth investigating.  On this point, their mention of clear proteinaceous hot-spots being detected in the V and P layers of the stratigraphy of the San Lorenzo could possibly suggest protein presence associated with pigmentation.  Also, FWIW, I don't think that their labelled P layers are clearly preparation layers but rather more a part of the V layering.  I suspect that the preparation layer may have more to do with the floury yellow material within the upper wood cell structure as seen in the UV images.  It seems that the fractures separating the coating systems from the first line of wood cells may have derailed their thinking.  Fractures can happen in various places within varnish stratigraphy and for any number of reasons.

On the issue of contamination or not, it is increasingly possible to differentiate between various protein origins.  There are some interesting recent studies that these researchers could consider in the interest of better understanding what might actually be involved.  In my view, what they are currently considering is far too limited.

Other clues in other publications that this group of researchers have been involved in possibly support Mike and my own contentions.  Based on this article, it would seem that they may not yet have grasped the potential significance of these.  Maybe one day....

[ernym]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Yes... for power (with tone that's acceptable).  That's the easy part.  The tones were extremely different, and THAT'S where the mystery lies.

Degradation of cellulose is generally not the goal... it's the other, energy-absorbing components (hemicellulose, lignin) you'd like to remove and/or polymerize into something more rigid, while preserving the cellulose as much as possible.  Maybe... if more sound/power is the goal.  Torrefying seems to do that.  But shaping the sound to old Strads or the like is a different level of complexity with no known solution that I'm aware of.  But I do have ideas to test some day.

Do you think this "shaping of sound to old Strad"s is due to aging wood properties or some mysterious concoction applied to the wood? Or a combination?

What are your ideas that you'd like to test?

 

[Michael Szyper]

Btw, during the last Vsa we had the opportunity to look at around 15 Guarneri fam instruments and plenty of moderns. Well, I liked the ground of the Justin Hess violin a lot more than the “rare old ones”. It is mainly because I like a bit more fire/colored varnish or resin in the flames, which cremonese usually have to a very limited extent. 

[David Beard]

This kind of micro layer analysis is the only way to improve our understanding 

[Don Noon]

Micro layer analysis to understand what the old guys used is one thing.  Obtaining the same results of a great modern maker may be something else entirely.

I too was greatly impressed with the Justin Hess VSA entry (and some others), and was mostly underwhelmed by the look of the Guarneris.

[David Beard]

Sure.

[uguntde]

The challenge is to identify Stradivari's genes from one of his violins and make a clone of the genius who will inspire the 21st century of violin making.

[Violadamore]

18 hours ago, uguntde said:

The challenge is to identify Stradivari's genes from one of his violins and make a clone of the genius who will inspire the 21st century of violin making.

Good plan, but in the 21st. Century, after he marries a rich widow, that'll be the last that you hear of him outside of tabloid celebrity gossip. 

[Don Noon]

Looking and hearing what today's top makers are putting out, there's no need to clone Strad.

[Michael Szyper]

Nevertheless, a lot of the tone awards had this „smashed in your face“ sound which i didn‘t hear in old italian violins so far. An it is also not what i prefer. Nevertheless, Pielaszeks violin had a lot of texture, complexity and sweetness to it. 

[Don Noon]

42 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

Nevertheless, a lot of the tone awards had this „smashed in your face“ sound which i didn‘t hear in old italian violins so far. An it is also not what i prefer. Nevertheless, Pielaszeks violin had a lot of texture, complexity and sweetness to it. 

My best guess is that if Strad was alive today and making new violins, they would sound like new violins.  300 years can do things.