Giving up on hand jointing.

[Crimson0087]

Will something like this produce a good joint for a violin? I have tried EVERYTHING. I tried building the shooting board..That doesnt work for me. I tried inverting the plane. No luck. I cant joint them individually bc I cant keep it square. I cant do them together b/c they shift in the vice. I am so beat up over this that I stinking give up. Anyways I think im gonna buy this thing if you guys think it will produce a good enough joint b/c after a week of this and no luck I just dont see myself ever getting it without hands on instruction and even then. Anyways what do yall think of these?

 

 

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Use one piece tops and backs.

[Stephen Holleman]

When you jointed them together in the vice, did you try using clamps or handscrews on both ends so that they don't shift as you plane them?

[Dennis J]

 In your original post the surface of the maple that you planed looked very rough and uneven. That definitely would not happen if your plane blade was sharpened properly.

It needs to be sharpened at an angle of about 25 to 30 degrees. A power planer might help but you would probably still need to finish with a well sharpened plane to get a smooth finish.

[Deo Lawson]

I happen to have a table planer and have used it successfully to join plates. The edge usually needs to be cleaned up a bit... because I'm simple I use fine sandpaper wrapped tightly to a hard block.

Buying one for this specific purpose seems a bit over the top.

[David Rosales]

It ain’t easy! I haven’t gotten to the center joint yet myself. I’m still figuring out how to use the tools to do basic things like flattening and squaring a block of wood! Keep practicing and and don’t stop problem-solving! Others are obviously able to do it using the methods you’ve tried so pick one and stick to it until you figure it out. 

[Mark Norfleet]

Save your money and keep practicing.

there are plenty of ways to do a joint improperly with a power planer/joiner, but faster!  In fact most here will tell you that it’s not possible to get a good joint with that tool, myself included.

Perhaps there’s someone nearby you can get some guidance from.

[Bill Yacey]

A good joint can be made with a powered jointer, but it has to be sharp, setup properly, and a slow feed speed to get the desired results. However, it's much more dangerous then a hand plane.

With a sharp blade and properly set up, a hand plane can make an excellent joint. I'd be willing to bet your blade isn't as sharp as you think it is.

[JacksonMaberry]

Second Marty's recommendation to use one piece billets if you're frustrated, but also second Mark's advice to keep at it. If you don't want to buy one piece billets at the moment, send them to me and I'll joint them, but only on the condition that you keep at it until you get it. 

[Crimson0087]

I have already ruined one set. I did sharpen the blades and they are sharp. I could try clamping the ends so the boards don't move...I think if a power planer got me 99 percent there then I could do a single pass on a hand plane to get it finished...I know it seems like overkill but I've probably spent 10 plus hours trying to joint these two boards that's enough time that I could have worked overtime and bought a power jointer...I'm gonna take it to a shop Monday they have a power jointer just to see how well it does and if I can finish it at home...I will keep at it and try each time but this wood hasn't much width left and if I keep messing up it will be scrap

[MikeC]

I think you said you're in GA.  about a 2 hour drive from me.  I'd be willing to help but I've only done a few joins myself so I'm no expert.  

On my first vso fiddle years ago I used a power planer like the one pictured and then I glued sandpaper to the flat edge of a four foot level and the joint worked well even though the fiddle itself was crap

I would say get some poplar boards from Lowe's and practice a lot until you get good at it.  

My first joint with a hand plane after gluing it wasn't good so I sawed down the glue joint and did it over again so it just takes some practice.  

[Michael Richwine]

58 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Save your money and keep practicing.

there are plenty of ways to do a joint improperly with a power planer/joiner, but faster!  In fact most here will tell you that it’s not possible to get a good joint with that tool, myself included.

Perhaps there’s someone nearby you can get some guidance from.

I've done plenty of power jointing as well as hand jointing for decades, and while a power jointer is faster, it takes similar skill to set up and operate as a hand plane does, and it's harder to get set up right to begin with, IMHO. Your plane isn't set up right yet, and it appears you haven't yet mastered some basic skills you need. If you don't have the patience to achieve a basic level of mastery, how to you you ever expect to  become a competent luthier? Have you taken any hand tool courses yet?

[Steve Voigt]

2 hours ago, Crimson0087 said:

I have tried EVERYTHING. I tried building the shooting board..That doesnt work for me. I tried inverting the plane. No luck. I cant joint them individually bc I cant keep it square. I cant do them together b/c they shift in the vice. I am so beat up over this that I stinking give up.

As a planemaker who has helped many people learn the basics of planing…may I suggest that you're going about this the wrong way? You're viewing the isolated job of planing the center joint as an unpleasant task to be gotten out of the way, instead of thinking about it as an opportunity to become highly skilled with a plane. You say you've tried everything, but it appears you've only been at it for a short time, not nearly long enough to learn any of these approaches. You need to take a giant step back, and slow way down.

First, you need to learn to sharpen. As others have observed, the tear-out and chatter visible in your previous thread indicate that you haven't mastered sharpening yet, and sharpening is the gateway to everything in woodworking. This may take you weeks, just to get decent at it.

Then, you need to be able to use your plane to produce tear-out free surfaces and gossamer shavings. More weeks. When you can do that, practice four-squaring boards--two sides and two faces that are flat, parallel, and perpendicular. Start with something like Easter white pine, and work your way up to more difficult woods. When you can do this, you'll be ready to graduate to edge jointing. But you've got to work through the basics first.

Now, you can skip all this and buy a power jointer, but if you can't use a hand plane, how are you going to do the many, far more complex steps involved in making an instrument? So again, I suggest you radically shift your time horizon, accept that it's going to take a while to learn, and get back to it. Maybe have a beer and give it a night off first.

[Dennis J]

There are a lot of thing that can go wrong with the type of planes you have. One that comes to mind is how the frog, which supports the blade, is adjusted. It can be adjusted forward and back by a couple of bolts into the base of the plane.

If it is too far forward this could be the problem. It is hard to tell from your previous photo but it might be the case.

 

[JacksonMaberry]

38 minutes ago, Steve Voigt said:

As a planemaker who has helped many people learn the basics of planing…may I suggest that you're going about this the wrong way? You're viewing the isolated job of planing the center joint as an unpleasant task to be gotten out of the way, instead of thinking about it as an opportunity to become highly skilled with a plane. You say you've tried everything, but it appears you've only been at it for a short time, not nearly long enough to learn any of these approaches. You need to take a giant step back, and slow way down.

First, you need to learn to sharpen. As others have observed, the tear-out and chatter visible in your previous thread indicate that you haven't mastered sharpening yet, and sharpening is the gateway to everything in woodworking. This may take you weeks, just to get decent at it.

Then, you need to be able to use your plane to produce tear-out free surfaces and gossamer shavings. More weeks. When you can do that, practice four-squaring boards--two sides and two faces that are flat, parallel, and perpendicular. Start with something like Easter white pine, and work your way up to more difficult woods. When you can do this, you'll be ready to graduate to edge jointing. But you've got to work through the basics first.

Now, you can skip all this and buy a power jointer, but if you can't use a hand plane, how are you going to do the many, far more complex steps involved in making an instrument? So again, I suggest you radically shift your time horizon, accept that it's going to take a while to learn, and get back to it. Maybe have a beer and give it a night off first.

Beautifully and kindly put, Steve.

[Don Noon]

I have used about everything... sandpaper glued to a straight edge, hand planes, power jointer, bigger power jointer, and finally a custom fixture for my CNC.  They all CAN work, if you're careful about it.

Re: hand plane... I'm with Bill Yacey in that there's what you might think is sharp, and what is REALLY sharp.  And the plane needs to be flat and set up properly for light cuts.  I struggled with cheap-ish planes for a while, hand-scraping the soles flat, giving up on one that was too warped to bother with, and finally got a good one.  It worked fine... but took some effort and time to get things sharp, adjusted, and then cut.

The power jointers were both too warped and/or out of alignment to cut a decent joint, and I ended up having a machine shop mill the tables on the first one, then hand-scraped the tables on both of them.  The blades also needed extremely fine tuning, and went dull and/or chipped too often for my tastes.

The CNC is great; simple to set up and very fast. I use a 1/2" spiral carbide cutter, so I can just replace it if it wears out.  I don't think it will, though.  Certainly not a machine you'd get just for doing center joints, but I got it mostly for other things.

Anyway, I'd say stick with the plane.  You never know how good or bad the power jointer is, and the plane can definitely be made to work well if you pay attention to all of the details.  And develop the skill/experience.  Worth doing.  All this is a bit of a repeat... just another vote.

[Greg Sigworth]

4 hours ago, Crimson0087 said:

Will something like this produce a good joint for a violin? I have tried EVERYTHING. I tried building the shooting board..That doesnt work for me. I tried inverting the plane. No luck. I cant joint them individually bc I cant keep it square. I cant do them together b/c they shift in the vice. I am so beat up over this that I stinking give up. Anyways I think im gonna buy this thing if you guys think it will produce a good enough joint b/c after a week of this and no luck I just dont see myself ever getting it without hands on instruction and even then. Anyways what do yall think of these?

 

 

 

The center joint has been hard for me. I have made a few violins and the last one finally I was able to use a plane to produce surfaces which were close to what I wanted. But it was hard to get this far, and more to go, then we have to glue these together with hot hide glue which for the beginner is another daunting task. This will sound crazy to you, but you are on the same track that many others have been on. I all most want to say that your experience sounds about right. Sharpening, adjusting, and all the rest takes time; but what a joy when it starts to come together. It will if you don't give up. If there is someone near to you to help you that would be good. There are many very good men here and I read their ideas and learn from them and I continue to learn a lot from them. 

[JacksonMaberry]

It was a struggle for me too, for all of at first. Lots of patience with the self and perseverance, but it pays off big time! I also use casein glue which is a bit more forgiving on the time factor, something to consider if hide stresses you out. I've written here about how to prepare it 

[Peter K-G]

I second lot of practice and want to add that a really good plane sharp as *&#@%, is the solution.

Had lots of problems in the beginning, the new plane was the real solution.

[wm_crash]

Those small benchtop jointers are just not going to be your answer. They have very little rigidity and basically the squaring of stock is in your hands again. If you can plane a straight edge, but have issues with squaring, I would like to suggest two alternatives:
 

1. Build a fence (or buy a fence) for your jointer. If you're buying, Lee Valley has them. If you're building, google it, it's not difficult to make.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/planes/maintenance-and-accessories/41716-veritas-jointer-fence?item=05P3001

2. Get an edge trimming plane. It's basically a block plane with an integrated fence. The blade width is enough for violin stock, but probably not for cello.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/planes/54862-veritas-iron-edge-trimming-planes

 

Last, but not least. I am going to make this assertion that while your surface finish will depend on your blade sharpness and plane setup, getting (or not getting) a square edge is more about technique (and just a bit about plane setup). Take a video of what you are doing and post it.If a shooting board didn't fix this, something that we take for granted isn't really happening for you.

cheers,
Cosmin

[Don Noon]

When I used a plane, I used the fixture shown below.  There's a flat, thick board with a thinner board attached to it, and a couple of pegs to locate the plane onto the fixture.  The pegs are not necessary, but help when getting the plane and board into the vise.

I think it is almost necessary to have the plane blade-up, so the wedges can be held firmly and maximum controlled force can be applied.  And of course the sharp blade, flat sole, well adjusted plane as has been so often mentioned.

[GerardM]

I would suggest DO NOT proceed with a power planer UNTIL you’ve mastered the hand plane. The reason for this is because of your inexperience there’s a fair chance you might remove some of your fingers. It’s quite scary that members of the public can purchase power tools having no training in the safe use of these things. As Steve mentioned learn how to sharpen first then practice planning say a foot long piece of 3 inch by 2inch timber flat and square on all four sides. Search YouTube for videos. For your own safety please follow this advice.

[Brad Dorsey]

1 hour ago, GerardM said:

…you might remove some of your fingers….

Take heed.  I know a man who had to learn to play left-handed after a close encounter with a jointer.

[MikeC]

Well I spent the morning resharpening the blade of my Record No. 9

It didn't take long for the main bevel however I spend a long time trying to flatten and get a good surface on the flat side.

I planed the edge of a poplar board and here's some pics.  Micrometer stopped just when I felt resistance from the shaving shows just over 1.  Turning it until the ratchet clicks it went down to 1.   

I tried going a little thinner but started getting some dust instead of a whole shaving. 

Once you can do this with a plane then you can use it for jointing plates.  

That should be right at 1 thousanth of an inch if I'm reading the micrometer right. 

It just takes good sharpening and a good setup and I'm no expert at it by any means. 

 

[Michael Richwine]

32 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Take heed.  I know a man who had to learn to play left-handed after a close encounter with a jointer.

Power tools don't even slow down when they're cutting flesh and bone. I've been nicked a time or two myself, and talked to several people who have lost fingers and more. You never see it coming, nor do you have time to react. Most of the time, it doesn't hurt all that much, IME, but it's sure a nuisance being without those digits. The one time I got bit bad, in 60 years, it took something like 15 years to get full use back.