Tuning the soundpost

[sospiri]

5 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I'm sorry to be picky, but this point comes up often, due to the arching templates that are in the museum. They are not by Stradivari but by someone who made them by copying existing violin archings, not all by Stradivari but some are from Amati violins. There are no original arching templates from Stradivari workshop, and I personally doubt that he used them to reproduce the same arching every time, it is quite evident by looking at his archings.

Ah, that's good to know. Thanks Davide.

[FiddleDoug]

1 hour ago, DutchViolins said:

In Germany there is a guy who realy is the expert!
Watch this:

 

And there's the account from a very good luthier who has a client who comes in complaining about how his violin sounds. The luthier tells him to "wait here for a few minutes". The luthier takes the violin in the back, inspects everything and doesn't find anything. The luthier does nothing to the instrument. The luthier brings it back out to the client and says "try it now". The client tries it and says "This is really much better!". Need I say more.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, Michael Richwine said:

The SDS says it contains aromatic hydrocarbons, so I wouldn't automatically rate it safe for varnish. Alkanes and isoalkanes are also listed. Not exactly food safe. No.1 abrasive is aluminum oxide.

I am aware what is in it, and I maintain that polishing new instruments with it as part of the process of refining the look is not an issue. I have also said that I prefer a non-solvent approach here, in the form of the polishing cloths. Food safe is irrelevant for violins - they are not for eating. Varnish is also generally best not eaten. Let's move on. 

[Evan Smith]

29 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I am aware what is in it, and I maintain that polishing new instruments with it as part of the process of refining the look is not an issue. I have also said that I prefer a non-solvent approach here, in the form of the polishing cloths. Food safe is irrelevant for violins - they are not for eating. Varnish is also generally best not eaten. Let's move on. 

Really?

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Let's move on. 

Are you claiming this thread as your own, or are you a wannabe moderator or somethin'?

[JacksonMaberry]

17 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Are you claiming this thread as your own, or are you a wannabe moderator or somethin'?

With apologies to Richwine, I was too short about it. I admit to some measure of irritation, because I felt my comment had been picked at for no reason given the caveats I'd already mentioned. At the end of the day, were all free to use whatever we want to polish our own varnish. I don't use flitz on an ongoing basis, so I shouldn't care whether anyone else does or doesn't. 

Carry on however you see fit, one and all. 

[Anders Buen]

I can't see how he reference in the initial movie can work, lying there on the bench.  

[David Burgess]

7 hours ago, DutchViolins said:

In Germany there is a guy who realy is the expert!
Watch this:

 

I don't doubt that hovering over the instrument closely enough to precisely place pin-pricks inside, while exhaling moisture and heat onto and into it, along with the heat from enough lighting to sufficiently illuminate the interior, would produce a change. Temporarily. 

However, I don't think that he was the first to use acupuncture sound adjustments on stringed instruments. The first that I knew of also did over-the-phone sound adjustments, requiring no physical changes to the instrument. Telepathy or somethin'.

[Don Noon]

David, I doubt the accupuncture process is about real acoustic changes, only imaginary ones.

Apparently the idea comes from seeing divider point marks on a Cremonese scroll, and perhaps graduation punch marks, and then the whole theory came "out of thin air".

[David Burgess]

48 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

David, I doubt the accupuncture process is about real acoustic changes, only imaginary ones.

Apparently the idea comes from seeing divider point marks on a Cremonese scroll, and perhaps graduation punch marks, and then the whole theory came "out of thin air".

Hang on there. Isn't it true that you guys found little green men on Mars, but were sworn to secrecy? 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Not to be cruel, but I'm actually surprised this subject/video has garnered as much attention as it has...

Enough said.  I'm out of pianos temporarily... guess I gotta go try and tune a fish.

Have a good time all!

[Don Noon]

20 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Hang on there. Isn't it true that you guys found little green men on Mars, but were sworn to secrecy? 

I would have to deny it, true or not.

[Muswell]

8 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I would have to deny it, true or not.

Aha! That proves it.

[The Violin Beautiful]

13 hours ago, David Burgess said:

However, I don't think that he was the first to use acupuncture sound adjustments on stringed instruments. The first that I knew of also did over-the-phone sound adjustments, requiring no physical changes to the instrument. Telepathy or somethin'.

I know to whom you’re referring! That person used to have a shop in the area briefly and the “psychic soundpost adjustment” is a thing some of the older players still joke about. Believe it it not, there’s even a book. A co-worker bought it for the shop as a gag gift once.

[Don Noon]

The truth is out there,

but so are lies.

-Dana Scully

[Jeffrey Holmes]

3 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

I know to whom you’re referring! That person used to have a shop in the area briefly and the “psychic soundpost adjustment” is a thing some of the older players still joke about. Believe it it not, there’s even a book. A co-worker bought it for the shop as a gag gift once.

I suppose I should feel validated...  I have a client who visited this adjuster and was told that the person who set up her violin was psychically balanced and that they could do no better.  Little did they know!  Ha, ha ha..... (maniacal laughter)  

 

[Evan Smith]

 

  

On 2/14/2023 at 10:07 AM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I suppose I should feel validated...  I have a client who visited this adjuster and was told that the person who set up her violin was psychically balanced and that they could do no better.  Little did they know!  Ha, ha ha..... (maniacal laughter)  

 

It is nice to know that "The Adjuster" is able to comprehend a well adjusted and balanced instrument, and that they don't try to improve everything in sight.

However the question remains,,,

Why did "She" search this adjuster out to look at, and maybe adjust, her fiddle? Could it be "She" possibly  needs to spend more time in said woodshed? Too often,,, said customers need lessons and counseling,, not adjustments.

I have refused at times to sell an instrument after playing the costumers own instrument to evaluate what they were used to, and found that it was perfectly suited for them. An in depth demonstration and lesson on how to run the thing is very helpful, and way more fun than mucking around with a sound post trying to make someone sound like Perlman without the practice. It also goes the other way, demonstrating how one instrument can easily outperform another. It's akin to someone pulling into a car lot when they are looking for 4wheel drives, and the salesman reaches into their vehicle and shows them "THAT" button on the dash,,, push this and you have "4 wheel drive". I have never understood how nonplayers can make and sell instruments.

People are fickle and always want the newest, or different or better thing, whatever it is, until we have "The Best".

The man with the pointie little sticks might be a hypnotist, and the players actually change their technique, unbeknownst to themselves to accommodate the sound they so desire. It is painfully obvious that a change in sound is only between the ears,,It is a bit too weird.

I find it also,, a bit strange how easily humans make fun of everything that they themselves cannot do nor understand.

I do not understand the sound post tuning  nor am I inclined to believe it nor try it. But I have done many experiments (years worth, I embarrassed to say) more and more varied that what you could even comprehend, (I have a wild imagination). I can assure you that removing the varnish, even a tiny bit, can have an audible effect on the right violin. For anything to be consistent and produce reliable results, the conditions have to be reliable, all conditions and parameters have to be evaluated, and met. You are messing with the highest frequencies here, the ones that are so hard to get, and that so easily disappear. Things do change, some more and some less, and conditions are paramount. That is why one thing works in one situation, and another time not. I hear some guys say they did this and that,, and there was hardly any change, when because of their description I am sure the change they were searching for was run right over like a skunk in the road and flat missed. Yep no change. Big changes are often caused by very subtle differences.

I have played some of David L's violins, that he did not make, just tuned up,,  before and after, and it was very impressive. A bit rough and course and harsh before, smooth clear flute like clarity after. What he does will not turn one into a powerhouse, but he knows how to make them sweet and balanced and fun to play. Giving an average violin some real power and projection is a different matter altogether. Never met him. Not hypnosis in these cases.

Jack Fry was on to something, he never fully reached the understanding of what was actually happening, he only saw a glimmer of the truth, and what he saw was real, maybe I should label him a fool, like so many others have done? I learned a lot from him, I greatly appreciate his work, he demonstrated at least where to look. I would love to demonstrate to him what he was trying to accomplish in it's fulfillment. Zuger keeps trying to apply his understanding to modern thinking only to repeatedly get tarred and feathered and publicly kicked in the teeth. It would be well for some to consider what he has to say and try to comprehend, rather than asking whether he has made a fiddle. The man is tenacious and tough as nails. His ideas are completely valid and have tremendous application in the realm of understanding violin arching. One does not have to use his STL's exactly as prescribed, but using them to some degree with a bit of understanding of why has it's benefits, if one would like to make a consistently fine violin. I personally don't like the exact placement of his STL's in the upper bout, so I change it a bit. With the correct arching the neck will not drop, even when under extreme pressure, heat and moisture, without splitting the f-holes and essentially destroying itself. When an arch is constructed with  all the beautiful curves that we dream about that we believe will create a wonderful sound, it can be collapsed like a spring. Kreit has spent much of his life researching, obviously this should amount to something of value? Nothing? Absolutely Nothing? And so many more people are destined for Just mockery and slamming, just another example of how truly broken and uncertain of themselves humans really are. We are talking about little boxes with strings, not someone scamming grandma of her life's savings or someone raping your daughter.

Granted some things are outlandish and should not be extolled as the way for success, and they need to be recognized as such. But in general we are way too heavy handed. But if people have not done their homework they have no real conviction on anything, we just take the popular opinion and jump onboard to be part of the crowd, it continues to build, and an avalanche ensues.

I listen to everything that someone has to say, some of my greatest eureka moments have come from beginning makers that are dreaming hard, and still searching with a fervor that is contagious. Upon first hearing, it usually sounds a bit deranged, but upon closer inspection there is often something of value, that if fully rejected will greatly hinder further developments. I am not super smart, dad was born in a covered wagon, and was a drunk, they were dirt poor, ,, think dust bowl. I am not able to weight out with precision everything I hear and decide whether  or not it is true. Some incredible miraculous things are beyond normal human comprehension, and I am willing to take the chance that I do not automatically know and understand all there is to know in an instant. I have always believed, but now with all the scientific research and evidence of the impossible complexities of life, and the realization that the machine has to be complete before it could ever run. I have abandoned the superstitious possibility that we crawled out of a goo and became fashion models and jet fighter pilots, and that someone might actually want to have a word with me if I dare to listen. I am willing to listen and obey.

It's all a bit complicated.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Why do cigar box violin makers and players look so happy?

[Evan Smith]

I thought it was maybe something in the glue?

They're not squares, they're rectangles?

What?

Tell me,

[Ganymede Piggot]

^Where little is given, little is required...

[Mike_Danielson]

Anyone remember?  There used to be a lady that could psychically (I may have mis-spelled this) adjust your instrument for improved sound.  You would call her up and talk to her about your instrument.  She would (for a fee) go into a trance and send adjustments to your instrument.  

On another issue, this message has gone "off the rails."  Oh well, I prefer fantasy to reality, anymore.  

Mike D

[classicalmusic]

I met David Langsather many years ago and tried a few of his instruments. Yes, he is very unorthodox in his making! He is the experimenter type and I hope any new makers here who are looking through his page dont get lost in his world and please dont apply that metal polish to any instrument thinking it will sound better. It’s a great way to ruin a good violin.

I wish a good violin maker here would reach out to him in kindness and explain how things work. If he applied himself in the correct way and method with as much passion and dedication as he has with his experimenting trying to reinvent the wheel I am totally convinced he would be a great maker. 

There were a few violins he made that actually sounded very good! One in particular he made was everything I look for in a great sounding violin: warmth, balance, richness, complexity, clarity, and power… it was the ideal…. I wish he just focused on making more instruments like that. It was very well made too. I wish I had pictures of it to share. I remember his wife telling him leave it alone and dont experiment on it…

He’s one of those who wants to find their own way of doing things…. He sure has spent a lot of time trying to find answers…

He is a kind hearted man though and it would be great if someone could explain to him how you dont need to tune a soundpost or every little piece of wood on a violin for it to sound good or ideal.

Be easy on the guy, he’s spent so many many years in this pursuit.  Hope it can lead to something good in the end for him….

 

 

 

[The Violin Beautiful]

4 hours ago, Mike_Danielson said:

Anyone remember?  There used to be a lady that could psychically (I may have mis-spelled this) adjust your instrument for improved sound.  You would call her up and talk to her about your instrument.  She would (for a fee) go into a trance and send adjustments to your instrument.  

On another issue, this message has gone "off the rails."  Oh well, I prefer fantasy to reality, anymore.  

Mike D

She came up earlier in the thread. 

[Ganymede Piggot]

23 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

I have abandoned the superstitious possibility that we crawled out of a goo and became fashion models and jet fighter pilots

Earth ends in about a billion years due to changes in the sun.  A billion years prior to now, all life on Earth was single-celled.  This means there's hellacious evolution to come!  Animals we can't conceive of writing books about the theory of humans.  Maybe not, since 300 million years after humans end there is expected to not even be any Earthly record of humans.   The next consciousness from Earth that makes it to moon will puzzle over archaeological remnants of moon landers and where they came from.

[David Burgess]

11 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

But in general we are way too heavy handed. But if people have not done their homework they have no real conviction on anything, we just take the popular opinion and jump onboard to be part of the crowd, it continues to build, and an avalanche ensues.

Evan, I happen to be one of those who has spent massive amounts of time experimenting with almost everything imaginable (though perhaps not as much as Don or Marty). I don't see anything wrong with recommending that people not waste their time, energy and resources pursuing things which already have a track record of little-to-no value, or even negative value. The fiddle business doesn't happen to be one of those situations where “everybody gets a trophy”. If that's what someone wants, they would do better to look elsewhere.

If someone wants to do weird or unsuccessful things, no problem, have at it. It's when they start proselytizing these things to others as successes that it may start to become a problem.