Tuning the soundpost

[JacksonMaberry]

11 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Before moving on, shouldn't we all form a circle, join hands, and sing 'Kumbaya'?

That would be lovely, actually. Come over here, big guy! 

[James M. Jones]

2 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

If you want to hear my thoughts on this, give me a call. I'm not going to wear out my thumbs anymore on this topic. Its going nowhere. 

Look, we all seem to agree that the Langsather methods leave a lot to be desired and may even be considered counterproductive. I'm going to move on, and I invite y'all to join me if you're so inclined.

Trivia question who said .... “ it’s nice to be nice to the nice”?

I’m in full agreement this line ... it’s not going anywhere... and that we can all see the fallacy of the sited video, just rifting off the idea of what is nice and where are those lines ? My larger point is that... 

David L has (I am sure  ) endured many critiques of his “method “,  buy many leaders in the field ‘(again I am sure) kyet persists in the folly, I ran into his stuff years and years ago .....and am still confused at how any legitimacy can be ascribed to it.  If we really want to be nice, rather than attacking those who strongly object,  , maybe it’s best to just let folks vent a bit , after all some have made a lifelong commitment to bringing the best effort to the field and well deserve recognition that the effort is not for nought. Sometimes calling attention to a perceived problem”  only serves to exacerbate it. 

[reg]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:07 PM, Wood Butcher said:

What do you remember that was good?

Nothing really - but it was good fun while it lasted

[John Alexander]

Has anybody tried this technique:

 

[Don Noon]

22 minutes ago, John Alexander said:

Has anybody tried this technique...

While this is not directly related to tuning the soundpost, it is similar in logic and demonstrated effect on playing performance (i.e. none).  There are plenty of instrument making rituals out there to try, and these are at the bottom of my list.

The polish material, however, might have some interesting working characteristics that could be useful.  Maybe.

[John Alexander]

I am wondering if using metal polish on a violin is actually a thing.  Beyond the tone tapping experiment what would it do to the varnish?

[Don Noon]

47 minutes ago, John Alexander said:

Beyond the tone tapping experiment what would it do to the varnish?

Impossible to say without knowing what's in the polish and what kind of varnish was used.  Even if you DID know all of that, it's also apparently dependent on application and use... so you'd have to try it and see.  Short answer: unknown.

[FiddleDoug]

Might work on one of these!

https://folkerhhh.livejournal.com/50309.html?

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, John Alexander said:

I am wondering if using metal polish on a violin is actually a thing.  Beyond the tone tapping experiment what would it do to the varnish?

What Don said. I've used Autosol (one of many metal polishes) to buff out my own oil varnish, does a fine job. I prefer a series of fine 3m polishing cloths. Same or better results optically, no nasty polish to deal with. 

I want to be clear that whatever you use, polishing the varnish isn't, regardless of the claims in the video, have a transformative effect on tone or performance. That's magical thinking. It can however be a useful tool in reaching your personal aesthetic goals. 

[John Alexander]

1 hour ago, FiddleDoug said:

Might work on one of these!

https://folkerhhh.livejournal.com/50309.html?

Gosh I bet it sounds dreadful 

[Kimmo89]

I see many people here makes joke of the video in the first post.
You should not, because it also shows you the history.
Everything has to be tested. Its the way any instrument was invented an later perfectioned.
If you don't test it, and just count on the Hz amount that reads in the book, you will never know what you achieve. Measuring Hz just tells you what is the amount of Hz in your piece, nothing else. It has nothing to do with the sound.
Sound means the thing made in the video, by tapping and testing. Even though finding the matching note is not the key, and the video maker uses Hz himself, but he has an attemp.

After my first violin, I build 9 violins for testing. Only 2 of them were how I liked, but I still dissembled those all 9, so I can re-investigate.
(and didnt want to sell bad violins)
It costs lots of money and time to literally destroy things you have made, but I still believe it was worth it, and it was how I ment it.

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, Kimmo89 said:

I see many people here makes joke of the video in the first post.
You should not, because it also shows you the history.

There is plenty of history of trial-and-error development, which is a good thing to continue doing.

However, making instructional videos on how some outlandish procedure should be done, when there is no evidence that it works and there is sufficient technical analysis to refute the fanciful claims...  that's over the edge.

[Kimmo89]

33 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

There is plenty of history of trial-and-error development, which is a good thing to continue doing.

However, making instructional videos on how some outlandish procedure should be done, when there is no evidence that it works and there is sufficient technical analysis to refute the fanciful claims...  that's over the edge.

Yes, like i said, the matching sound does not matter, but I ment that all is wort of testing, and the video maker has an effort on it.
Personally im not so accurate with my own soundposts, I just select the wood and thickness.
 

[FiddleDoug]

2 hours ago, Don Noon said:

There is plenty of history of trial-and-error development, which is a good thing to continue doing.

However, making instructional videos on how some outlandish procedure should be done, when there is no evidence that it works and there is sufficient technical analysis to refute the fanciful claims...  that's over the edge.

It was a good commercial for Flitz metal polish!  If you believe that one, I have some really nice Snake Oil that really smooths out the tone.

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, FiddleDoug said:

It was a good commercial for Flitz metal polish!  If you believe that one, I have some really nice Snake Oil that really smooths out the tone.

I was actually referring to the original soundpost tuning video.  The polishing/taptuning is similar, except there is no technical analysis I can do for that.

[Bill Merkel]

If Stradivari had had a "scientific" approach, it would be a lot more like what you call magical thinking than what happens in the 21st century.  Maybe you are seeing your true heritage as makers...   Hertz wasn't even born until the middle of the 19th century.  Stradivari would say "Monopole radiator?  Fuhgeddaboudit, goombahs."

[La Folia]

Spreading goo on a violin gives me the creeps -- even if it is his violin.  I've seen some real damage and some temporary damage from violin "polish".  I suspect that the long-term effect is unknown, and I speculate that there's a fair chance that it could have unfortunate consequences later.  I'm curious what you all think of it.

[JacksonMaberry]

"spreading goo on a violin" sounds a lot like putting on varnish. 

What the goo is matters. The flitz polish isn't going to do anything bad, immediately or long term, to a good oil or spirit varnish. It's just an abrasive paste, and you remove it fully when you're done using it. It's not a problem. But don't expect it to make miracles, it's literally just a polish.

[Peter K-G]

The violin body has a lot of modes, If you rub the surface, with or without polish, you will easily notice changes in modes and sound. They are temporary and will go back as the surfice cools down and hardens again.

[Kimmo89]

3 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

If Stradivari had had a "scientific" approach, it would be a lot more like what you call magical thinking than what happens in the 21st century.  Maybe you are seeing your true heritage as makers...   Hertz wasn't even born until the middle of the 19th century.  Stradivari would say "Monopole radiator?  Fuhgeddaboudit, goombahs."

They had much scientific approach, thats why violin is what it is now.
I also know what is Herz and how its used, and as I have said in other topic aswell, herz is not the way to make a sound.

Our Sun gives a low Hz measured by machines, but it still gives a massive amount of "sharp deadly power".
While something much bigger than a sun, another star like Canis Majoris gives much more deeper Hz, but it gives even more power than the Sun.
Speaking of a black hole that is so powerful that no light or sound can escape of it at all. We cant measure Hz from it because it is too powerful.
In violin making or other stuff while measuring Hz, people think that higher the Hz, more sound or brightness and higher pich. Yes, its what you may hear from the phone or computer program, but its so simple and in a thin range of measure.
If you compare a violin and the Sun, Sun has the low Hz, but much more power than the violin with higher Hz with a low power.
Measuring Hz is so thin range measuring and for example 300Hz has millions of different sounds and powers in it.
But power can mean anything. For examble if you take a bare bassbar blank in your hands and tap it with finger next to your ear, it has a quite low Hz, but it hurts your ear. You may try it because it really hurts your ear. Its the power of the sound you hear, not the power of the Hz.
Sure we can try tuning for the exact same Hz than some Stradivari violin, but it doesn't sound like the Stradivari violin, because Herz cant be compared to a sound and noice.

Stradivari is the best example we can have in this forum. Since so much of hes tools are still for us to see.
He made investigations, and when he got it good, he made teplates for all parts of the body, the mold to get the inside side measurements right. Also templates for arching so he can copy hes succes all over again. Someone who has made hundrets of violins before the "golden period" ones don't need templates anymore to carve the wood in a shape. Experiense would do it about right just with eye. But he wanted to copy hes success, and just remembering how the wood sounded before.
Its annoying to try to explain since you dont know the terms in english but lets say that its relativity? of everything.


And for the "Magical thinking of 21st century".
People are not any wiser than 500 years ago. We just have ability to learn more with a new tools. But we dont.
Someone like Da Vinci. With the information or equipments he had he was much wiser than many of the scientists today.
How we are really today? Do we really have the "scientific approach" today? What are the most common news today?
I tell you an examble: "Rainbow people are normal and healthy and they must let to destroy the marriage law made for only man and woman 2000 years ago. We have just found out that man and woman wasnt the only sex afterall, there is 10 more! We should let the children change them gender aswell!"
"Carbon Dioxide, that keeps us alive will afterall kill us all if we dont pay much money to world leaders".

This is "science" today.
People are crazy.
But you were right and maybe you ment it. Its "magical thinging".
 

[Davide Sora]

1 hour ago, Kimmo89 said:

He made investigations, and when he got it good, he made teplates for all parts of the body, the mold to get the inside side measurements right. Also templates for arching so he can copy hes succes all over again.

I'm sorry to be picky, but this point comes up often, due to the arching templates that are in the museum. They are not by Stradivari but by someone who made them by copying existing violin archings, not all by Stradivari but some are from Amati violins. There are no original arching templates from Stradivari workshop, and I personally doubt that he used them to reproduce the same arching every time, it is quite evident by looking at his archings.

[Don Noon]

4 hours ago, Kimmo89 said:

If you compare a violin and the Sun...

When I can get a good player for a blind test of the two, I'll be sure to do that.

[DutchViolins]

In Germany there is a guy who realy is the expert!
Watch this:

 

[Kimmo89]

Everything can be compared, If you read the Albert Einsteins Theory of relativity, it teaches us that everything surrounding us works like the same. There are just different materials, but the principles are the same for all.


 

4 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I'm sorry to be picky, but this point comes up often, due to the arching templates that are in the museum. They are not by Stradivari but by someone who made them by copying existing violin archings, not all by Stradivari but some are from Amati violins. There are no original arching templates from Stradivari workshop, and I personally doubt that he used them to reproduce the same arching every time, it is quite evident by looking at his archings.

I have read about of these before. You may be right that he did not use templates.
My thought is that he had, even if the handworking vary a little. The heights are guite close and the shapes around the edges. But he might have used a different method instead of the direct template on top of arching, like the pen marking tool. But I do believe he has copied the shapes all around the violin.
Also the molds tells me that he tried everything even with slighest difference. And who knows how many of hes tools and molds and templates are lost.
But also the method making purfling after soundbox is closed may cause differences on arching, depending how accurate you can do it. Some violins have deeper area around the purfling than others (wear carculated), and comparing one same template for these makes difference at the highest point of that part of the arching.

[Michael Richwine]

10 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

"spreading goo on a violin" sounds a lot like putting on varnish. 

What the goo is matters. The flitz polish isn't going to do anything bad, immediately or long term, to a good oil or spirit varnish. It's just an abrasive paste, and you remove it fully when you're done using it. It's not a problem. But don't expect it to make miracles, it's literally just a polish.

The SDS says it contains aromatic hydrocarbons, so I wouldn't automatically rate it safe for varnish. Alkanes and isoalkanes are also listed. Not exactly food safe. No.1 abrasive is aluminum oxide.