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On 10/16/2022 at 7:02 AM, jacobsaunders said:

Apropos label:

the 19th C. (Markneukirchen) Wholesalers published and sold masses of octavo sheets of facsimile labels to the violin trade that could be snipped out and stuck in anywhere, so that one needn't expect to see any resemblance between a Grancio, and such a violin with a Grancino label, since it was frankly a lucky dip, which name got stuck inside what. About 10 years ago the Kunsthistorish Museum in Vienna had a special exhibition about the musical life of the 19th C (called “der Himmel hängt voller Geigen”) where there was a whole large glass exhibition case with hundreds of these labels, which to this day slumber in a dusty corner of the ex-Lemböck shop in the Musikverein. I wrote a short note about this here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046

Were there earlier instances of this same kind of “bulk” fake labels being made?  I have an old violin with a Grancino label in it (I’m really clear the violin isn’t a Grancino.) Local knowledgeable luthier says the label might be real.  Or not.  It has laid lines and stuff, so likely older fake if it’s a fake.  I’m asking because I’m an author currently making up a plausible but fictional backstory for my violin and her label :)

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6 hours ago, stickwitch said:

Were there earlier instances of this same kind of “bulk” fake labels being made?  I have an old violin with a Grancino label in it (I’m really clear the violin isn’t a Grancino.) Local knowledgeable luthier says the label might be real.  Or not.  It has laid lines and stuff, so likely older fake if it’s a fake.  I’m asking because I’m an author currently making up a plausible but fictional backstory for my violin and her label :)

I’m afraid I can’t comment on a violin I haven’t ever seen. I would refer you to here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046

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21 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I’m afraid I can’t comment on a violin I haven’t ever seen. I would refer you to here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046

Sorry to be confusing - I wasn’t seeking comments on my violin or specific label!  Just wondering if there were earlier historical episodes of regions where fake labels were made in relatively vast quantities.  

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10 hours ago, stickwitch said:

Sorry to be confusing - I wasn’t seeking comments on my violin or specific label!  Just wondering if there were earlier historical episodes of regions where fake labels were made in relatively vast quantities.  

That is precisely what I wrote about in the linked post

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

That is precisely what I wrote about in the linked post

I’ll apologize again for annoying you.  I read the linked post and everything else I could find that you’ve posted here about labels.  I’m trying to ask something that I don’t think you’ve written about here (but may be wrong and in any case am clearly doing it badly!)

Feel free to ignore me at this point, but I’ll try one more time on my question.  The Markneukirchen labels appear to be pulp paper, which I understand to be mostly post 1850 production (I’m relying on this as my source, which may be bad! https://www.skinnerinc.com/news/blog/violin-appraiser-how-to-identify-violin-label/).  

I have a Grancino label on my violin that appears to have laid lines, and wording/appearance wise looks like an actual Grancino label that my local luthier found an example of in one of his books.  So one possibility is that a real Grancino label got added to my not-a-Grancino violin at some point.  Another is that someone at some point was making more careful fake labels that copied actual labels and used linen paper.  My initial clumsy question was wondering if there had been a bulk source of fake labels similar to the Markneukirchen ones, but done earlier, in the era of linen labels, rather than pulp paper like the ones you posted about.  I’m realizing “earlier” isn’t the only possibility - someone could have used linen paper to make fakes at a later time, or Markneukirchen may have made linen paper fakes as well, or laid lines are easily faked, or other possibilities I haven’t thought of. 

Again, I’m not looking for an evaluation of my label, or anything definitive.  I’m an author trying to piece together a “plausible” story.  I can absolutely make up a source of fake labels like mine, but if there’s a real one, that would be a fun addition to my tale :)

I believe I can post photos now, so here is a poor one of my actual label, in case anyone wants to peer at it.

C1248F53-F88D-4609-B452-EE5984B09EC0.jpeg

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31 minutes ago, stickwitch said:

I’ll apologize again for annoying you.  I read the linked post and everything else I could find that you’ve posted here about labels.  I’m trying to ask something that I don’t think you’ve written about here (but may be wrong and in any case am clearly doing it badly!)

Feel free to ignore me at this point, but I’ll try one more time on my question.  The Markneukirchen labels appear to be pulp paper, which I understand to be mostly post 1850 production (I’m relying on this as my source, which may be bad! https://www.skinnerinc.com/news/blog/violin-appraiser-how-to-identify-violin-label/).  

I have a Grancino label on my violin that appears to have laid lines, and wording/appearance wise looks like an actual Grancino label that my local luthier found an example of in one of his books.  So one possibility is that a real Grancino label got added to my not-a-Grancino violin at some point.  Another is that someone at some point was making more careful fake labels that copied actual labels and used linen paper.  My initial clumsy question was wondering if there had been a bulk source of fake labels similar to the Markneukirchen ones, but done earlier, in the era of linen labels, rather than pulp paper like the ones you posted about.  I’m realizing “earlier” isn’t the only possibility - someone could have used linen paper to make fakes at a later time, or Markneukirchen may have made linen paper fakes as well, or laid lines are easily faked, or other possibilities I haven’t thought of. 

Again, I’m not looking for an evaluation of my label, or anything definitive.  I’m an author trying to piece together a “plausible” story.  I can absolutely make up a source of fake labels like mine, but if there’s a real one, that would be a fun addition to my tale :)

I believe I can post photos now, so here is a poor one of my actual label, in case anyone wants to peer at it.

C1248F53-F88D-4609-B452-EE5984B09EC0.jpeg

The Kunst Historisches Museum in Vienna held an exhibition about the Musical life of 19th C. Vienna in 2011 titled “Der Himmel hängt voller Geigen”. Object #149 was a large glass case with an immense variety of these facsimile labels in all imaginable paper/printing style etc. left over from the Lemböck workshop (which still exists), so I wouldn’t take much notice of your link, which I wouldn’t find helpful

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22 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The Kunst Historisches Museum in Vienna held an exhibition about the Musical life of 19th C. Vienna in 2011 titled “Der Himmel hängt voller Geigen”. Object #149 was a large glass case with an immense variety of these facsimile labels in all imaginable paper/printing style etc. left over from the Lemböck workshop (which still exists), so I wouldn’t take much notice of your link, which I wouldn’t find helpful

Ah, to be able to wander through Vienna museums again :).  Thank you.

ETA:  I’ve found a print exhibition catalog and ordered it.  That should be interesting - we’ll see how Google translate does with violin German!

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20 minutes ago, stickwitch said:

Ah, to be able to wander through Vienna museums again :).  Thank you.

ETA:  I’ve found a print exhibition catalog and ordered it.  That should be interesting - we’ll see how Google translate does with violin German!

The labels only got a very short write up, Prof. Hopfner didn’t seem to excited, but we violin makers were. There was other stuff exhibited, for instance Paganini's thank-you letter to Sawitzky, thanking him for repairing his violin that Hopfner was much more excited about

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34 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The labels only got a very short write up, Prof. Hopfner didn’t seem to excited, but we violin makers were. There was other stuff exhibited, for instance Paganini's thank-you letter to Sawitzky, thanking him for repairing his violin that Hopfner was much more excited about

Authors get excited about a wide range of things.  I’ll look through the catalog with interest!  I just finished reading about a repair Postacchini did of a violin shattered into “a sack of bones”.  Hopefully Paganini’s instrument wasn’t in such dire shape.

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