Craigers Posted October 14, 2022 Report Posted October 14, 2022 I'm curious what this could be. It has such an odd outline and the string length is only 320mm. I'm assuming it's BOB. Thanks for looking !
Craigers Posted October 15, 2022 Author Report Posted October 15, 2022 Does this look like a Dutzendarbeit violin ?
Delabo Posted October 15, 2022 Report Posted October 15, 2022 I am not an expert, but to me it does not look like a late 19th century "usual". More like an early 19th century Saxon violin of some description. The label is obviously fake but looks like it has been in their a long time.
Gtone Posted October 15, 2022 Report Posted October 15, 2022 Worth a dendro,very interesting,the label looks hand done. Experts?
Michael Darnton Posted October 15, 2022 Report Posted October 15, 2022 Nothing to do with Grancino, nothing to do with Italy. This is more in Jacob's department.
GeorgeH Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 I wonder it the top is original or if it is it from a different violin. Also, some of the curl on the ribs looks painted on.
Gtone Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 3 hours ago, Michael Darnton said: Nothing to do with Grancino, nothing to do with Italy. This is more in Jacob's department. Yes I didn't mean to imply that, but just simply an interesting violin. I'm not sure whether you do this or not Michael but if you right click the image and open in a new tab you can enlarge the pic.If so what do you think of the font on the label because I thought it looked hand written? George I'm sure they aren't painted on, maybe Craigers can share his thoughts on this.
GeorgeH Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 11 minutes ago, Gtone said: George I'm sure they aren't painted on, maybe Craigers can share his thoughts on this. Just wondering. Maybe it is the picture angle, but the bass side C-rib looks like it has painted curl in the next-to-last picture. Can @Craigers see that same curl on the inside?
Pate Bliss Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 The only reason I can't sell a '74 Dodge pickup truck as a Rolls Royce is those so-called experts.
jacobsaunders Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 18 hours ago, Craigers said: Does this look like a Dutzendarbeit violin ? I would suppose it is far more what was called “Copie” and was a little more expensive. I am though slightly confused that the fluting of the scroll (what I can see) appears to go “to the bitter end”. Also the outline and the arching seem untypical
Michael Darnton Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 @Gtone The lines in the font are much too sharp and straight for the period. I'm sure it's a font, not hand written, but it's the wrong font, a more modern machine-made one. Early fonts were hand cut and have both softness and irregularity from both the cutting method and the replication method. Here's an appropriate type of label pictured in a book (thus the half-tone dots): Then if you want to complete the illusion, you pick a family member no one ever sees violins from (Francesco in your case), so that there can't be research to contradict the label, or better yet you completely make up a family member. The lowest level of expertise in the business is when someone says "I don't see why it couldn't be a Xxxxxxx", which basically means "I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it's old and sloppy, so it must be Italian." (and just for the record, "sloppy" isn't an actual Italian violin attribute.) But that violin has German written on it in every detail. I'm sure the top goes, too.
jacobsaunders Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Darnton said: @Gtone The lines in the font are much too sharp and straight for the period. I'm sure it's a font, not hand written, but it's the wrong font, a more modern machine-made one. Early fonts were hand cut and have both softness and irregularity from both the cutting method and the replication method. Here's an appropriate type of label pictured in a book (thus the half-tone dots): Then if you want to complete the illusion, you pick a family member no one ever sees violins from (Francesco in your case), so that there can't be research to contradict the label, or better yet you completely make up a family member. The lowest level of expertise in the business is when someone says "I don't see why it couldn't be a Xxxxxxx", which basically means "I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it's old and sloppy, so it must be Italian." (and just for the record, "sloppy" isn't an actual Italian violin attribute.) Apropos label: the 19th C. (Markneukirchen) Wholesalers published and sold masses of octavo sheets of facsimile labels to the violin trade that could be snipped out and stuck in anywhere, so that one needn't expect to see any resemblance between a Grancio, and such a violin with a Grancino label, since it was frankly a lucky dip, which name got stuck inside what. About 10 years ago the Kunsthistorish Museum in Vienna had a special exhibition about the musical life of the 19th C (called “der Himmel hängt voller Geigen”) where there was a whole large glass exhibition case with hundreds of these labels, which to this day slumber in a dusty corner of the ex-Lemböck shop in the Musikverein. I wrote a short note about this here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046
Delabo Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: I would suppose it is far more what was called “Copie” and was a little more expensive. I am though slightly confused that the fluting of the scroll (what I can see) appears to go “to the bitter end”. Also the outline and the arching seem untypical Any reason that you have ruled out that it is a violin from the Glatz/Silesia region (Graftschaft Glatz) with its open bouts?
Michael Darnton Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 I've seen that type of f-hole referred to as "swastika" holes because of the visual effect of a straight upright center with the top and bottom coming off at right angles rather than fluidly looping over to the eyes (oversimplification) as on most Italian violins. Take two of these, abstract them to lines, turn one 90 degrees and lay it over the other, and you've got. . . . a uniquely German statement. What region that's from, I don't know, since I leave those nuances to people who see more of this type of instrument and care about it. addl: I believe the origin of this form is from a particular briefly-used form of Nicolo Amati f copied and exaggerated by Stainer, then further exaggerated by makers attempting to copy Stainer. I don't at all think that it's the most common native-origin German f type.
jacobsaunders Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 28 minutes ago, Delabo said: Any reason that you have ruled out that it is a violin from the Glatz/Silesia region (Graftschaft Glatz) with its open bouts? I illustrated a Böck Wolfersdorf here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/ which, save from “open c bouts” otherwise has largely divergent features to this non.Grancino, so that I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia
Craigers Posted October 16, 2022 Author Report Posted October 16, 2022 12 hours ago, Gtone said: Yes I didn't mean to imply that, but just simply an interesting violin. I'm not sure whether you do this or not Michael but if you right click the image and open in a new tab you can enlarge the pic.If so what do you think of the font on the label because I thought it looked hand written? George I'm sure they aren't painted on, maybe Craigers can share his thoughts on this. The figure in the sides and back is 100% not painted on, it really is some great looking wood
Craigers Posted October 16, 2022 Author Report Posted October 16, 2022 @GeorgeH I'll try to get a pic of the inside rib tomorrow. BTW it appears to have spruce linings
Craigers Posted October 16, 2022 Author Report Posted October 16, 2022 The nicks in the FF holes are quite different
Delabo Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: I illustrated a Böck Wolfersdorf here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/ which, save from “open c bouts” otherwise has largely divergent features to this non.Grancino, so that I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia Ok, I have looked at the pictures in that thread,and the open violin in the photo there is inside mould, and the OPs violin looks to be BOB, so I see your point. You mentioned "copie" earlier, did these copys go as far as to use hand made purfling? The Ops violins purfling wanders all over the place and is obviously not factory made stuff. And what were they making copys of? Does this one bring any particular school to mind?
jacobsaunders Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, Delabo said: And what were they making copys of? Does this one bring any particular school to mind? These so called “copie” weren’t a copy (in a Hargrave sense) at all, rather what someone imagined an “old Italian violin” could look like, without necessarily ever having seen one
Michael Darnton Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, Delabo said: The Ops violins purfling wanders all over the place and is obviously not factory made stuff. Perhaps you are confusing "wandering" with varying edge wear around the perimeter, especially on the top since it's softer? Generally top purfling looks different, usually worse, on older instruments because of the softness of spruce. The edges wear faster, the purfling groove tends to be slightly larger and less crisp and the wet purfling can also expand more when it's glued it, and the purfling is less protected from wear and the bleaching effect of skin chemistry. The main problem this maker seems to have is making the curves from the c bout into the [especially upper] corners.
Blank face Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said: I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia I mentioned Glatz in another thread about a very different violin (by "Matesic"), so I'm a bit perplexed now. The OP makes me think of Bohemia (in a widest sense), where one can sometimes find instruments combining both Vogtland (bob) and S-German/Austrian features. Some of the wear looks like deliberate antiquing, so both being a copy-style and a rough mid 19th period seem evident.
jacobsaunders Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Blank face said: I mentioned Glatz in another thread about a very different violin (by "Matesic"), so I'm a bit perplexed now. sorry, me getting mixed up this time
Gtone Posted October 16, 2022 Report Posted October 16, 2022 I appreciate the follow ups especially Micheal and Jacob,I hadn't seen this shape,outline combined with some other features size and like Delabo mentioned about the purfling,graft,fluting,etc. I think interesting still fits the bill .....but I was getting a little excited . I know the can't be much faith put in labels,to inexperienced eyes at least,but I thought I could see some variance in the font,leading me to think it was hand done.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now