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  • Craigers changed the title to " Grancino"
3 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

Nothing to do with Grancino, nothing to do with Italy. This is more in Jacob's department.

Yes I didn't mean to imply that, but just simply an interesting violin.

I'm not sure whether you do this or not Michael but if you right click the image and open in a new tab

you can enlarge the pic.If so what do you think of the font on the label because I thought it looked

hand written?

George I'm sure they aren't painted on, maybe Craigers can share his thoughts on this.

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18 hours ago, Craigers said:

Does this look like a Dutzendarbeit violin ?

I would suppose it is far more what was called “Copie” and was a little more expensive. I am though slightly confused that the fluting of the scroll (what I can see) appears to go “to the bitter end”. Also the outline and the arching seem untypical

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@Gtone The lines in the font are much too sharp and straight for the period. I'm sure it's a font, not hand written, but it's the wrong font, a more modern machine-made one. Early fonts were hand cut and have both softness and irregularity from both the cutting method and the replication method.

Here's an appropriate type of label pictured in a book (thus the half-tone dots):
48673_c80_label.jpg

Then if you want to complete the illusion, you pick a family member no one ever sees violins from (Francesco in your case), so that there can't be research to contradict the label, or better yet you completely make up a family member. The lowest level of expertise in the business is when someone says "I don't see why it couldn't be a Xxxxxxx", which basically means "I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it's old and sloppy, so it must be Italian." (and just for the record, "sloppy" isn't an actual Italian violin attribute.) 

But that violin has German written on it in every detail. I'm sure the top goes, too.

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1 hour ago, Michael Darnton said:

@Gtone The lines in the font are much too sharp and straight for the period. I'm sure it's a font, not hand written, but it's the wrong font, a more modern machine-made one. Early fonts were hand cut and have both softness and irregularity from both the cutting method and the replication method.

Here's an appropriate type of label pictured in a book (thus the half-tone dots):
48673_c80_label.jpg

Then if you want to complete the illusion, you pick a family member no one ever sees violins from (Francesco in your case), so that there can't be research to contradict the label, or better yet you completely make up a family member. The lowest level of expertise in the business is when someone says "I don't see why it couldn't be a Xxxxxxx", which basically means "I have no idea what I'm looking at, but it's old and sloppy, so it must be Italian." (and just for the record, "sloppy" isn't an actual Italian violin attribute.) 

 

Apropos label:

the 19th C. (Markneukirchen) Wholesalers published and sold masses of octavo sheets of facsimile labels to the violin trade that could be snipped out and stuck in anywhere, so that one needn't expect to see any resemblance between a Grancio, and such a violin with a Grancino label, since it was frankly a lucky dip, which name got stuck inside what. About 10 years ago the Kunsthistorish Museum in Vienna had a special exhibition about the musical life of the 19th C (called “der Himmel hängt voller Geigen”) where there was a whole large glass exhibition case with hundreds of these labels, which to this day slumber in a dusty corner of the ex-Lemböck shop in the Musikverein. I wrote a short note about this here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/330195-johann-adam-sch%C3%B6nfelder/&do=findComment&comment=621046

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5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would suppose it is far more what was called “Copie” and was a little more expensive. I am though slightly confused that the fluting of the scroll (what I can see) appears to go “to the bitter end”. Also the outline and the arching seem untypical

Any reason that you have  ruled out that it is a violin from the Glatz/Silesia region (Graftschaft Glatz) with its open bouts?

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I've seen that type of f-hole referred to as "swastika" holes because of the visual effect of a straight upright center with the top and bottom coming off at right angles rather than fluidly looping over to the eyes (oversimplification) as on most Italian violins. Take two of these, abstract them to lines, turn one 90 degrees and lay it over the other, and you've got. . . . a uniquely German statement. What region that's from, I don't know, since I leave those nuances to people who see more of this type of instrument and care about it.

addl: I believe the origin of this form is from a particular briefly-used form of Nicolo Amati f copied and exaggerated by Stainer, then further exaggerated by makers attempting to copy Stainer.  I don't at all think that it's the most common native-origin German f type.

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28 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Any reason that you have  ruled out that it is a violin from the Glatz/Silesia region (Graftschaft Glatz) with its open bouts?

I illustrated a Böck Wolfersdorf here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/ which, save from “open c bouts” otherwise has largely divergent features to this non.Grancino, so that I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia

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12 hours ago, Gtone said:

Yes I didn't mean to imply that, but just simply an interesting violin.

I'm not sure whether you do this or not Michael but if you right click the image and open in a new tab

you can enlarge the pic.If so what do you think of the font on the label because I thought it looked

hand written?

George I'm sure they aren't painted on, maybe Craigers can share his thoughts on this.

The figure in the sides and back is 100% not painted on, it really is some great looking wood

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48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I illustrated a Böck Wolfersdorf here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/341045-violin-making-in-the-graftschaft-glatz/ which, save from “open c bouts” otherwise has largely divergent features to this non.Grancino, so that I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia

Ok, I have looked at the pictures in that thread,and the open violin in the photo there is inside mould, and the OPs violin looks to be BOB, so I see your point. You mentioned "copie" earlier, did these copys go as far as to use hand made purfling? The Ops violins purfling wanders all over the place and is obviously not factory made stuff. And what were they making copys of? Does this one bring any particular school to mind?

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13 minutes ago, Delabo said:

 And what were they making copys of? Does this one bring any particular school to mind?

These so called “copie” weren’t a copy (in a Hargrave sense) at all, rather what someone imagined an “old Italian violin” could look like, without necessarily ever having seen one

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20 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The Ops violins purfling wanders all over the place and is obviously not factory made stuff.

Perhaps you are confusing "wandering" with varying edge wear around the perimeter, especially on the top since it's softer? Generally top purfling looks different, usually worse, on older instruments because of the softness of spruce. The edges wear faster, the purfling groove tends to be slightly larger and less crisp and the wet purfling can also expand more when it's glued it, and the purfling is less protected from wear and the bleaching effect of skin chemistry.

The main problem this maker seems to have is making the curves from the c bout into the [especially upper] corners.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I can’t imagine why BF is reminded of Glatz/Silesia

I mentioned Glatz in another thread about a very different violin (by "Matesic"), so I'm a bit perplexed now:unsure:.

The OP makes me think of Bohemia (in a widest sense), where one can sometimes find instruments combining both Vogtland (bob) and S-German/Austrian features. Some of the wear looks like deliberate antiquing, so both being a copy-style and a rough mid 19th period seem evident.

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I appreciate the follow ups especially Micheal and Jacob,I hadn't seen this shape,outline combined with some other features size and like Delabo mentioned about the purfling,graft,fluting,etc.

I think interesting still fits the bill .....but I was getting a little excited :).

I know the can't be much faith put in labels,to inexperienced eyes at least,but I thought I could see some variance in the font,leading me to think it was hand done.

 

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