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German bows at Tarisio Berlin


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Seems like Tarisio is being very cautious in their descriptions of German bows. There are many bows with contemporary certificates that Tarisio describes merely as "ascribing" the bows to certain makers. This is a change from their past practice, as far as I can tell.

 

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46 minutes ago, Violinjon said:

Seems like Tarisio is being very cautious in their descriptions of German bows. There are many bows with contemporary certificates that Tarisio describes merely as "ascribing" the bows to certain makers. This is a change from their past practice, as far as I can tell.

 

If you are referring to the ones with Schmidt certificates, he (Schmidt) writes, black on white, that his opinion is based on his year long experience and that “Eine Haftung für Richtigkeit wird in jedem Falle ausgeschlossen” (i.e. any liability is ruled out), so that IMHO the Tarisians translation “ascribed” is exactly accurate

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I‘m wondering, no conclusion at all. I wondered why Tarisio sells certified bows without naming them as what they are certified. 
So in case I want to sell via Tarisio, I wondered if the certificates have any added value. 
 

I know that Tarisio guarantees for what they sell as „by“ but in the case of the Schmidt certificates, those do not always seem to have enough impact on Tarisios willingness to guarantee for that. 

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22 hours ago, Blank face said:

The Christian Wilhelm Knopf with the French certificate is "by". Though I'm wondering why a 70 gr. bow should be for violin.

The certificate describes it as viola bow.

49 minutes ago, PascalJ said:

I‘m wondering, no conclusion at all. I wondered why Tarisio sells certified bows without naming them as what they are certified. 
So in case I want to sell via Tarisio, I wondered if the certificates have any added value. 
 

I know that Tarisio guarantees for what they sell as „by“ but in the case of the Schmidt certificates, those do not always seem to have enough impact on Tarisios willingness to guarantee for that. 

You should ask Tarisio before going into speculations. Though it's curious.

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1 hour ago, PascalJ said:

I‘m wondering, no conclusion at all. I wondered why Tarisio sells certified bows without naming them as what they are certified. 
So in case I want to sell via Tarisio, I wondered if the certificates have any added value. 
 

I know that Tarisio guarantees for what they sell as „by“ but in the case of the Schmidt certificates, those do not always seem to have enough impact on Tarisios willingness to guarantee for that. 

Answer: Liability. German Law is certainly different from US Law.

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

The certificate describes it as viola bow.

You should ask Tarisio before going into speculations. Though it's curious.

I did ask Tarisio and they said they‘d not guarantee for german bows if unstamped and/or from rather unknown bow makers even if certified. Whereby Johann Wilhelm Knopf is obviously considered "rather unknown" https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2199666688&cpid=3840933888&filter_key=

But that seems to be the answer why some are sold as "by" and some are not. 
 

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1 hour ago, PascalJ said:

I did ask Tarisio and they said they‘d not guarantee for german bows if unstamped and/or from rather unknown bow makers even if certified. Whereby Johann Wilhelm Knopf is obviously considered "rather unknown" https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2199666688&cpid=3840933888&filter_key=

But that seems to be the answer why some are sold as "by" and some are not. 
 

Johann Wilhelm Knopf is definitely not "unknown" but has a large and widely documented body of work, see the Grünke book. The work of Christian Wilhelm is much more rare and usually not branded, but was listed as "by", so there's not much logic within this information. Unfortunately it's now withdrawn (formerly lot 64).

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42 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Johann Wilhelm Knopf is definitely not "unknown" but has a large and widely documented body of work, see the Grünke book. The work of Christian Wilhelm is much more rare and usually not branded, but was listed as "by", so there's not much logic within this information. Unfortunately it's now withdrawn (formerly lot 64).

Yes it's strange. And it's exactly why I was wondering if the Schmidt certificates are useful in this context because it seems that Tarisio comes to a different conclusion in some cases...

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Hi all,
 
Some interesting questions here... The first thing to say is that I have great respect for my German colleagues C. Hans Karl Schmidt and Klaus Grünke for the excellent research they have done and for the expertise they have for German bow makers. There is so much to learn about German bows and these two experts in particular have much to teach us. 
 
The second thing to say is that we're not at all disagreeing with Hans Karl's attributions and opinions; we're just not able to guarantee all of them. At Tarisio when we sell an instrument or bow as "by" a maker, we guarantee that attribution. Many of these lesser known German makers are simply beyond my current expertise and I'd rather be cautious than make an attribution blindly.
 
But there are also some concerns I have about German bows in general. The basis for bow expertise – for all bow expertise – is branded examples in good condition. That's how we learn. And in general I worry that there's a lack of published reference examples for German bows.
 
The other issue that's worth discussing is that – I believe – German bows are generally less conclusively attributable than French bows. The German system in Markneukirchen and Leipzig (as I understand it) had many generations of makers working in a similar style and using the same brand stamp – or no brand at all. These are wonderful bows but I worry that it's difficult to make definite attributions that will be unanimously supported by future generations of experts.
 
But looking on the bright side, there are some amazing German bowmakers from the 19th and 20th centuries that we're just starting to understand and identify... CHKS and KG are leading the way and I only hope that they will publish more reference examples so that we can learn more about these makers and identify them with confidence.
 
(and yes, lot 64 was a viola bow! :( look out for it returning in a future sale...)
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