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Dresden usual violin?


Spongebob
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Yes Violadamore ... cheap, usual :)

However, I have a few questions.

Are they a commercial violin?
Do they come from the beginning of the 20th century?
Who made the commercial violin in ... Dresden?
or where did the violin come from, which was traded in Dresden (cheap violin)?

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13 minutes ago, Renegade said:


Who made the commercial violin in ... Dresden?
 

Nobody.

People with violin shops/dealerships everywhere bought from the Markneukirchen wholesalers, and glued their own labels in.

Why do you need so many wine glasses in your workshop, or is it for śliwowica

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15 minutes ago, deans said:

Most lower grade "Dresden" violins seem to be from Markneukirchen. Same with Leipzig. Seems those cities were put on the labels just for marketing purposes through the catalogues.

No label, but that suggested origins ... (I'm not that brilliant myself :)

It looks like a factory product (?), not a cottage one.
I can see the bottom rib join (two pieces) but the corners, stick out much more than the rib joint.

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26 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Nobody.

People with violin shops/dealerships everywhere bought from the Markneukirchen wholesalers, and glued their own labels in.

Why do you need so many wine glasses in your workshop, or is it for śliwowica

A'propos :)

20220905_194156_HDR.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
14 hours ago, Blank face said:

I don't know why you're thinking this cottage industry has anything to do with Dresden or France? There's absolutely nothing what would separate it from the usual Markneukirchen/Schönbach production.

When they came to me, I named them so that I could distinguish between them (it had a bridge with the word Dresden) ... just because :).
When I took off my belly (because I have to stick it together) I saw 'glue cleats'.
I read somewhere on MN, when one of you asked if there are cleats on the bottom plate (it was about the distinction between Markie and Mirecourt).
I thought maybe these are the French ones sold in Germany.

PS: I have seen a dozen or so Markies recently (from different periods) and those inside are made very 'clean', even the bass beam looks like someone has been working on it for an hour.

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16 hours ago, Blank face said:

I don't know why you're thinking this cottage industry has anything to do with Dresden or France? There's absolutely nothing what would separate it from the usual Markneukirchen/Schönbach production.

Jakob's blockology is ruthless ... Markie, BOB ... though, very nice workmanship. Do you have any knowledge of who, when and in what area of Vogland the 'glue cleats' were used?

Can you help determine the years of production?

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29 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I’m sure we could suggest some more appropriate names:)

What was the German word ...for numbers? :) (315....???)

Jakob, as usual novice mistake.
As I can see, a stuck shavings, no cornerblocks, etc ... that's all  know. And now I'm dealing with nice clean work inside more and more ... polished bass bars, no spilled glue, etc ... And then I make the simplest mistake ... I wonder what form was used? ... and here... is BOB :)

Are those dots of glue on the bottom plate something special?
When was the BOB stopped? (talking about a larger quantitative scale)

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Trademarks like Dresden, Bausch, Panpi, Aubert etc on bridges were just brands and don't have anything to do with the origin of a violin, also don't tell about dealers. They could have been replaced or exchanged anywhere at any time.

The glue dots indicate that someone didn't trust their bottom seam.:)

I general very clean inside surfaces at cottage industy violins are indicating machine work, usually more from the 20th century. As was pointed out several times before, the industy declined in the 1930s, bob was widely used still in GDR times.

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25 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Trademarks like Dresden, Bausch, Panpi, Aubert etc on bridges were just brands and don't have anything to do with the origin of a violin, also don't tell about dealers. They could have been replaced or exchanged anywhere at any time.

The glue dots indicate that someone didn't trust their bottom seam.:)

I general very clean inside surfaces at cottage industy violins are indicating machine work, usually more from the 20th century. As was pointed out several times before, the industy declined in the 1930s, bob was widely used still in GDR times.

Lately, I can rely on you a lot. Thank you very much for answering my questions.
Of course, this 'Dresden' bridge was not a clue of ... origin for me (this is just the name I used, so that I would know for myself which violin I am talking about :)
Now, I have probably eight copies of inexpensive violins (in various condition) and I learn a lot from them - construction techniques.
I have BOB's with full corner block, with pretend and completely empty ... I unglued some damaged tops (for practice and learning) ... I glue them and put them back together ... it's a great practice, on very cheap instruments ... trials with varnish (shellac for now).

PS: You write that the bridges do not prove anything (obvious). But, often when determining the origin of a violin, you ask's about the bow ... and this in the context of combining them with the origin of the violins themselves ... How to explain this, bow are also exchanges.

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14 minutes ago, Renegade said:

often when determining the origin of a violin, you ask's about the bow ... and this in the context of combining them with the origin of the violins themselves ... How to explain this, bow are also exchanges.

I think nobody ever asked about bows to guess the origin of a violin. This you misunderstood. Questions about bows are just asked to check if they are possibly more valuable than the violin itself. This isn't the case very often, but sometimes a matter of speculation.

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  • 2 weeks later...

As far as I know, when you build a violin from scratch, the whole box sticks together, and then you make a socket for the neck and stick it in.
When repairing an already existing violin, can I (should) glue the neck first and then the belly?
From my point of view, it would be advisable and more convenient.

Second question...
What is the difference between skin glue:
- plain (granules)
- canned (granules)
- in tiles
Which will be the best? - IYO

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28 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Glue the box together, then fit the neck into the "socket", which I would call a mortise

This is not opportunism, but a follow-up question :)

I separated the neck from the body very nicely. ... Karate Kid :)
The socket and heel of the neck look perfect. When I put on the neck, the varnish that remains on the heel of the neck and the one on the ends of the ribs fit together perfectly. This varnish shows that the neck fits perfectly in the socket.
After taking off my belly, on your advice, I drank off the glue and any tiny remains of wood fibers. Thus, I got rid of the traces of gluing, which makes it difficult for me (I am inexperienced) to glue again when folding back.
Isn't it the case that if I put the neck in first, I will have a better positioning of my belly?

Can I use skin glue in tiles to glue the neck and belly?

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The correct angle of neck is measured from proper position of bridge on belly so you need to have it in place to fit the neck.

The fact that the neck appears to fit the mortice perfectly doesn't mean you will have correct angle after you glue the top (even when assuming the neck was fit correctly before disassembly). Even if you only remove top from well setup violin you need to be extra carefull the neck angle will stay correct after gluing it back together so once the neck is removed it is much safer t glue the neck after body assembly.

Difference between dry hide glues is generally (in order of importance)

1. hide species (which fish, rabbit, cow, or bones for bone glue)

2. gram strength of glue (usually graded only on cow hide glues)

3. clarity

The shape or size of the dry granules (or whatever other form they have) doesn't matter much, only affects how long it takes to pre-soak it before heating. You can always grind dry glue to finer granules on coffee grinder...

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11 minutes ago, Spongebob said:

This is not opportunism, but a follow-up question :)

I separated the neck from the body very nicely. ... Karate Kid :)
The socket and heel of the neck look perfect. When I put on the neck, the varnish that remains on the heel of the neck and the one on the ends of the ribs fit together perfectly. This varnish shows that the neck fits perfectly in the socket.
After taking off my belly, on your advice, I drank off the glue and any tiny remains of wood fibers. Thus, I got rid of the traces of gluing, which makes it difficult for me (I am inexperienced) to glue again when folding back.
Isn't it the case that if I put the neck in first, I will have a better positioning of my belly?

Can I use skin glue in tiles to glue the neck and belly?

the critical thing about necks, ist that they point at the bridge once one is finished

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27 minutes ago, HoGo said:

The correct angle of neck is measured from proper position of bridge on belly so you need to have it in place to fit the neck.

The fact that the neck appears to fit the mortice perfectly doesn't mean you will have correct angle after you glue the top (even when assuming the neck was fit correctly before disassembly). Even if you only remove top from well setup violin you need to be extra carefull the neck angle will stay correct after gluing it back together so once the neck is removed it is much safer t glue the neck after body assembly.

Difference between dry hide glues is generally (in order of importance)

1. hide species (which fish, rabbit, cow, or bones for bone glue)

2. gram strength of glue (usually graded only on cow hide glues)

3. clarity

The shape or size of the dry granules (or whatever other form they have) doesn't matter much, only affects how long it takes to pre-soak it before heating. You can always grind dry glue to finer granules on coffee grinder...

 

27 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

the critical thing about necks, ist that they point at the bridge once one is finished

Thank you very much ...logical ...and my idea is to take the easy way.
Of course I will do as you advise :)

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Does this happen to you when you take your belly off (e.g. for repair)?
... take off the belly, fix it for some time (sometimes 2-3 days) ... put the belly on the ribs, and here's a surprise.
Belly sticks out a lot behind the lower ribs (in my case, 3-4 mm) more, because ...
the lower ribs parted to the sides, and in the area ofe button, they leaned inward.
Of course, the profile of the ribs glued to the back plate remained the same.

Violin terminology side 2.jpg

Violin terminology front 2.jpg

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31 minutes ago, Spongebob said:

Does this happen to you when you take your belly off (e.g. for repair)?
... take off the belly, fix it for some time (sometimes 2-3 days) ... put the belly on the ribs, and here's a surprise.
Belly sticks out a lot behind the lower ribs (in my case, 3-4 mm) more, because ...
the lower ribs parted to the sides, and in the area ofe button, they leaned inward.
Of course, the profile of the ribs glued to the back plate remained the same.

Violin terminology side 2.jpg

Violin terminology front 2.jpg

It is routine, that when re-glueing bellys, there is to much rib, and not enough belly outline due to wood shrinkage in the width, but hardly in the length. The usual solution is to shorten the ribs

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4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

... The usual solution is to shorten the ribs

Of course, but for a seasoned professional (like you) :).
What do you think, that the sides of the lower ribs (near the upper plate) should be slightly pressed - with a carpentry clamp, and the ribs in the area of the bottom bloc, pulled back and locked with a pin (it was inserted there earlier, so it is a good indicator of how the belly fits to the ribs).

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5 minutes ago, Spongebob said:

Of course, but for a seasoned professional (like you) :).
What do you think, that the sides of the lower ribs (near the upper plate) should be slightly pressed - with a carpentry clamp, and the ribs in the area of the bottom bloc, pulled back and locked with a pin (it was inserted there earlier, so it is a good indicator of how the belly fits to the ribs).

You can push and shove to your hearts content. what is too long isn't shorter:)

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