German Violin?

[Derek Law]

What is this violin? I presume this was a mass produced German violin in late 19th century. Is that correct? 
 

is this a usual Markie?

 

 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Derek Law said:

What is this violin? I presume this was a mass produced German violin in late 19th century. Is that correct? 
 

is this a usual Markie?

It certainly appears to be.  Could you please post a photo of the back of the scroll/pegbox?

I see you have Evahs on it.  How does it sound? 

[Derek Law]

Evah sounds a bit more interesting than dominant I think.

 

back of scroll 

Thanks!

[Violadamore]

7 hours ago, Derek Law said:

Evah sounds a bit more interesting than dominant I think.

 

back of scroll 

Thanks!

Yup, as expected, there's a "delta" (a triangular widening) at the end of the central ridge of the scroll fluting in the photo above.  Your violin ticks all the boxes for a Markie, and could serve as a "type specimen".  Thank you for the excellent photographs. 

[mezzopiano]

Thanks for explaining. I was indeed wondering why the back of the scroll was so important for the identification.

[Blank face]

 

24 minutes ago, mezzopiano said:

Thanks for explaining. I was indeed wondering why the back of the scroll was so important for the identification.

This "delta", "dogsnose" or whatever one would like to name it, can be found at all sorts of violins, Mittenwald Verleger, Mirecourt French, old British etc. pp, while a lot of more decent made Markneukirchen Schönbachs don't have it. Therefore it's a weak and often misleading identification feature (though the most easily detected by the lazy).

[Delabo]

4 minutes ago, Blank face said:

 

This "delta", "dogsnose" or whatever one would like to name it, can be found at all sorts of violins, Mittenwald Verleger, Mirecourt French, old British etc. pp, while a lot of more decent made Markneukirchen Schönbachs don't have it. Therefore it's a weak and often misleading identification feature (though the most easily detected by the lazy).

Thanks for clarifying that about the delta. What date would you put on this violin?

[GeorgeH]

6 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Therefore it's a weak and often misleading identification feature (though the most easily detected by the lazy).

It does, however, help distinguish Markies from Mitties.

[Blank face]

49 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

It does, however, help distinguish Markies from Mitties.

Just in the way that in 19th century Markneukirchen most of them have it, in Mittenwald many.. I think I once posted a gallery of Neuner & Hornsteiners and the like having pretty dognoses at the rear pegbox.

[Derek Law]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Yup, as expected, there's a "delta" (a triangular widening) at the end of the central ridge of the scroll fluting in the photo above.  Your violin ticks all the boxes for a Markie, and could serve as a "type specimen".  Thank you for the excellent photographs. 

I thought the widening is just because that is the part that keeps touching hard surface and thus flattened over the years. The flattening seems to also happen to the edge of the scroll.

Am I understanding the delta right? 

 

On this typical Markie, what more can be said? Rough date? What type of quality/price range in the Markie spectrum? Is it trying to be based on some prototype model? 

[Violadamore]

2 hours ago, Derek Law said:

Am I understanding the delta right? 

 

On this typical Markie, what more can be said? Rough date? What type of quality/price range in the Markie spectrum? Is it trying to be based on some prototype model? 

No, the delta is carved in from when the neck is completed, as is the edge flattening.

Markies as we see them here were mass-produced from roughly 1880 to the mid 1920's, and mainly shipped to shops and catalog resellers in the USA.  IMHO, it looks to be middle quality, and the price might range between $200 and $700 depending on condition and sound, as well as the venue you try to sell it in.  You'll see them for more in some shops (or from what I consider weasels on eBay), but don't expect much over $500 unless it's unusually resonant and very well set up.

[Ron1]

6 hours ago, Violadamore said:

No, the delta is carved in from when the neck is completed, as is the edge flattening.

 

Violadamlore- This is a very difficult to understand explanation of what/where the "delta" is; I doubt that it resolved Derek Law's question.  Can you give it another "go"?

[Violadamore]

8 minutes ago, Ron1 said:

Violadamlore- This is a very difficult to understand explanation of what/where the "delta" is; I doubt that it resolved Derek Law's question.  Can you give it another "go"?

Sorry, it looks like you misunderstood both his question and my answer.  He was asking if his understanding that the delta is caused by wear was correct.  I told him no, it's put there on purpose by the maker.   

I gave a description of where to find it in a previous answer. 

[jacobsaunders]

5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Sorry, it looks like you misunderstood both his question and my answer.  He was asking if his understanding that the delta is caused by wear was correct.  I told him no, it's put there on purpose by the maker.   

I gave a description of where to find it in a previous answer. 

Addie (bless him) told me some years ago that this “Delta” was called a “Dogs Nose” and cited the cutlery industry. I’m afraid the Mn search function has left me in the lurch once again

[Gtone]

Is this the one Jacob?

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/318659-yet-another-violin-id/page/2/#comment-549206

[jacobsaunders]

16 minutes ago, Gtone said:

Is this the one Jacob?

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/318659-yet-another-violin-id/page/2/#comment-549206

Thanks!

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Addie (bless him) told me some years ago that this “Delta” was called a “Dogs Nose” and cited the cutlery industry. I’m afraid the Mn search function has left me in the lurch once again

I knew that ther term dog's nose/dogsnose etc. was established by someone here before (whom we are missing), and it fits IMO much better than Delta, which is a more regular and and straight pattern:  Δ

The flattening of the chamfers in the upper rear part isn't natural wear but part of the antiquing, what's usually seen at this type of violins.

[Bob K]

For those experienced scroll carvers, would I be correct in assuming that, as  in dutzendarbeit, the fastest production of a scroll using the smallest range of gouges would result in a delta that would take more work and more time to remove?

[jacobsaunders]

12 minutes ago, Bob K said:

For those experienced scroll carvers, would I be correct in assuming that, as  in dutzendarbeit, the fastest production of a scroll using the smallest range of gouges would result in a delta that would take more work and more time to remove?

Although some (particularly the cheaper Dutzendarbeit) seem to try and eliminate every possible superfluous chisel cut, many better quality ones seem to have very deliberate “Dogs Noses”, so that I can’t really subscribe to your theory

[Brad Dorsey]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Addie…told me…that this “Delta” was called a “Dogs Nose”…

I have also heard it called “the Devil’s Triangle.”

[jacobsaunders]

35 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

I have also heard it called “the Devil’s Triangle.”

t

They must be the ones in Violadamore’s collection

[GeorgeH]

@jacobsaunders, does the presence or lack thereof of a locator pin in the top also serve as a helpful feature in sorting Markneukirchen/Schönbach violins from Mittenwald violins?

[jacobsaunders]

6 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

@jacobsaunders, does the presence or lack thereof of a locator pin in the top also serve as a helpful feature in sorting Markneukirchen/Schönbach violins from Mittenwald violins?

No, one may expect a locator pin in the belly of both Mittenwald and Markneukirchen. The Markneukirchen ones don’t have a locator pin in the back though (unless someone has added one) whereas the Mittenwald ones mostly do

[jezzupe]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

t

They must be the ones in Violadamore’s collection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXy7qYAKrfc

 

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

t

They must be the ones in Violadamore’s collection

 

50 minutes ago, jezzupe said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXy7qYAKrfc

 

Judging by your postings, I'll concede that you gentlemen must have greater expertise with deviltry than I do.