cracks and wood type of this 1800 guitar

[Andersen]

Dear All, I am sorry to bring up a question about an instrument different than a violin, but thought that the experts here could anyway answer my questions.

What wood you think it's the back made of ? I think the top could be spruce by looking at the grain.

Second, is it really difficult to repair cracks like that ?

Many thanks for your kind help !!

 

 

 

[stringcheese]

The back appears to be flat sawn Brazilian Rosewood. The top is some variety of spruce. The exact species could vary depending on where and when the guitar was made.

[jacobsaunders]

56 minutes ago, Andersen said:

 

Second, is it really difficult to repair cracks like that ?

Yes, it is really difficult

[Spongebob]

22 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yes, it is really difficult

Jacob, I'll surprise you here.
Using wide clamps, glue, cleats and neodymium magnets, is quite a simple matter.
I've done this a dozen times already ... it can be done without removing the top plate.
For a friend, it may be a bigger problem to reset the neck ... because it seems to me that the strings will be 10 mm from the fingerboard.
The guitar environment is my first and basic.
Violin, I learn at MN

Of course, I'm just talking about joining the cracks. There may also be a problem with the detached ribs (the ones under the top plate) or the elimination of the concavities at the sternum.
So my colleague has some work to do :/

[Michael Richwine]

Those are awfully wide, dirty looking cracks. Might be more of a challenge than anticipated, also depending on the type and condition of the bracing.

[duane88]

get the steel strings off!

 

The back does look like BRW. Guitar repair people sometimes use splines to repair cracks like these that are so dirty and wood has been lost, but that is not the case with violin family instruments.

 

Cool guitar. Salvageable but it won't be cheap.

[Blank face]

33 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Jacob, I'll surprise you here.
Using wide clamps, glue, cleats and neodymium magnets, is quite a simple matter.
I've done this a dozen times already ... it can be done without removing the top plate.
For a friend, it may be a bigger problem to reset the neck ... because it seems to me that the strings will be 10 mm from the fingerboard.
The guitar environment is my first and basic.
Violin, I learn at MN

Of course, I'm just talking about joining the cracks. There may also be a problem with the detached ribs (the ones under the top plate) or the elimination of the concavities at the sternum.
So my colleague has some work to do :/

I'm a bit surprised by such a statement, too.

One big difference between guitars and violins is that a violin has a plate overstand, the guitar not. This fact makes it a very difficult, nearly impossible task to remove the top for repair and reglue it properly. These cracks are usually caused by shrinkage and are almost always more like gaps than simple cracks. Without filling them you can clamp and cleat as much as you want, they will unvariably reopen after the next heating season. Therefore such cracks need to be filled with wood splines to avoid this, what's not an easy job to be done peoperly in register and if they should to be made as less visible as possible.

The guitar is of the often nicely decorated type made in big numbers in Saxony around 1900, using fine wood and mop, but unfortunately they are constructed with heavy plates and a ladder bracing, resulting in a disappointing tone (compared to modern standards) and the necks are usually heavily bent forward, especially when they were strung up with steel strings over a long period. So it's wiser to use them as a wallhanger than to try a laborious or costy restoration.

[Spongebob]

8 hours ago, Blank face said:

I'm a bit surprised by such a statement, too.

One big difference between guitars and violins is that a violin has a plate overstand, the guitar not. This fact makes it a very difficult, nearly impossible task to remove the top for repair and reglue it properly. These cracks are usually caused by shrinkage and are almost always more like gaps than simple cracks. Without filling them you can clamp and cleat as much as you want, they will unvariably reopen after the next heating season. Therefore such cracks need to be filled with wood splines to avoid this, what's not an easy job to be done peoperly in register and if they should to be made as less visible as possible.

The guitar is of the often nicely decorated type made in big numbers in Saxony around 1900, using fine wood and mop, but unfortunately they are constructed with heavy plates and a ladder bracing, resulting in a disappointing tone (compared to modern standards) and the necks are usually heavily bent forward, especially when they were strung up with steel strings over a long period. So it's wiser to use them as a wallhanger than to try a laborious or costy restoration.

100% right ...
In this case, if the plate is removed, it is the back plate. It will be a little easier. But the job is serious.

[Andersen]

Thanks you all for the really helpful comments. I love how it looks but I am scared to go into a full restoration, as it might cost as much as buying a decent modern guitar with indian rosewood. Best wishes

[shunkpenn]

On 8/20/2022 at 3:57 PM, Andersen said:

Dear All, I am sorry to bring up a question about an instrument different than a violin, but thought that the experts here could anyway answer my questions.

What wood you think it's the back made of ? I think the top could be spruce by looking at the grain.

Second, is it really difficult to repair cracks like that ?

Many thanks for your kind help !!

 

 

 

I had a late 19th century parlor guitar similar to this but with more cracks.  Before fixing, the guitar was placed in a trash bag with wet sponges to help slowly expand the cracks before repairing. It ended up turning out fairly nice. 

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, shunkpenn said:

I had a late 19th century parlor guitar similar to this but with more cracks.  Before fixing, the guitar was placed in a trash bag with wet sponges to help slowly expand the cracks before repairing. It ended up turning out fairly nice. 

I would be afraid that such an action could cause all kinds of distortions and glue separations, making the decorations fall out and damage the varnish. At least, as I explained, any wood expansion would not survive very long. Did you keep the guitar or sold it soon?

[Andersen]

probably, the biggest motivation to get this guitar restored is just the beautiful piece of rosewood on the back. does this make any sense to you ? What would be in your opinion the average price for such a restoration, 1000-1500 USD ?

[stringcheese]

My advice would be "wall hanger". This thing has been mistreated and butchered. Yes, anything can be restored, but not everything is worth it. We see a lot of guitars from this transitional era that have been stung with steel (much higher tension) strings and damaged beyond affordable restoration. When I saw the screws in the bridge I pretty much wrote it off.

[Andersen]

2 minutes ago, stringcheese said:

My advice would be "wall hanger". This thing has been mistreated and butchered. Yes, anything can be restored, but not everything is worth it. We see a lot of guitars from this transitional era that have been stung with steel (much higher tension) strings and damaged beyond affordable restoration. When I saw the screws in the bridge I pretty much wrote it off.

good eye ! did not pay attention to that. Guess those were added later when the bridge started to lift up due to the increased tension...

[shunkpenn]

18 hours ago, Blank face said:

I would be afraid that such an action could cause all kinds of distortions and glue separations, making the decorations fall out and damage the varnish. At least, as I explained, any wood expansion would not survive very long. Did you keep the guitar or sold it soon?

I definitely understand the concerns. I kept the guitar and still have it in my collection. The person who worked on it for me used the same technique on other guitars with success. 

[Al Cramer]

Could someone explain why the top cracks need to be repaired (other than for cosmetic purposes)? I get that they would be a huge problem on a violin. But a guitar top has all this bracing to define the vibration modes and regions. Wouldn't the bracing compensate for the loss of integrity in the top plate caused by the cracks?

Thanks!

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

51 minutes ago, Al Cramer said:

Could someone explain why the top cracks need to be repaired (other than for cosmetic purposes)? I get that they would be a huge problem on a violin. But a guitar top has all this bracing to define the vibration modes and regions. Wouldn't the bracing compensate for the loss of integrity in the top plate caused by the cracks?

Thanks!

 

The problem with cracks in a violin top plate is that their opposing surfaces rub against each other to produce a nonmusical noisy sound.  If you use a saw to make the cracks wider so that their surfaces don't touch each other then the violin actually  sounds better than if it didn't have the cracks.

F holes are just really wide cracks.

[Mat Roop]

Yes, and I recall having accepted a multi crack cello for repair only to be faced with an irate client saying that the cello does not sound as good as before the repair.  same with a beat up and battered accoustic bass.

does not seem to be as evident with a violin.

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

I was a participant in an experiment at an Oberlin Acoustics Workshop about 12-15 years ago where we made incremental length narrow saw cuts ( I did the saw cutting so people could blame me afterwards for the impending wastefulness) alternating in increments above the upper eye of an f hole and below the the lower eye of an f hole in a simulation of what happens when various  length cracks appear in these locations.

Mechanical engineers (not train engineers) know that sharp corners produce stress concentrations that can lead to crack initiations.  That is why f holes have their rounded tops and bottoms --these large radius shapes try to avoid cracks from starting.  Nevertheless cracks still tend to start there because of the large load applied by the strings on the island area between the f holes.

Much to our surprise the simulated crack saw cuts from the f holes actually improved the sound of this violin (a violin donated for the experiment which I wrecked and made unsalable).  These cut were extended in a few centimeters at a time until they no longer showed an improvement  in group listening tests.

This might mean that cracks are not what be what they are cracked up to be.

 

 

 

 

[Blank face]

Agree that cracks in a guitar top aren't as dangerous in the first place as at violins. Nonetheless the guitar top is loaded and cracks will in the long run cause deformations, warping and after a while the internal structure like bars and bracing will be damaged, too - it will separate from the top, start to buzz and deform.

For the same reason a "put it in a plastic bag with wet sponges" has uncontrollable risks. It is more probable than not that the inside bars will get loose and/or the glue will be weakened. Every humidity being added this way will unvariably disappear again in the "normal" ambiente and tension will increase again. Such damages aren't very obvious at first sight, but in my experience such methods will cause problems, reopening of cracks, new cracks next to the cleated or other difficulties in the long run.

[HoGo]

3 hours ago, Blank face said:

For the same reason a "put it in a plastic bag with wet sponges" has uncontrollable risks. It is more probable than not that the inside bars will get loose and/or the glue will be weakened.

I'd guess the internal structure already is compromised. This most likely has ladder bracing and I cannot see a chance of such wide cracks without at least partiallly loose braces. SOme humidity cycling may help in these cases IF the instrument was stored improperly and very overdried (hot attic...). But will need long time of slow humidification and stabilization BEFORE any other work can be done.

[Blank face]

27 minutes ago, HoGo said:

I'd guess the internal structure already is compromised. This most likely has ladder bracing and I cannot see a chance of such wide cracks without at least partiallly loose braces. SOme humidity cycling may help in these cases IF the instrument was stored improperly and very overdried (hot attic...). But will need long time of slow humidification and stabilization BEFORE any other work can be done.

In general I agree 100%. But the plasticbag/wet sponge method (and it's not the first time I heard about it) is IMO just the opposite of controlled humidity cycling, not to mention that other parts like mop decoration, purfling, binding, neck, fingerboard etc. which might have been uncompromised now could be affected, too.

Each repair needs in my eyes to be done in humidity conditions which are expected in future, not in an over-humid state, when open shrinkage cracks are intermittendly closed.

And as I said, these guitars can be nice looking but were produced within the cottage industry system, heavy-weight constructed and therefore usually not very promising soundwise.