German violin to ID

[Goffriller]

Hi everyone, 

Just got this violin properly set up and it sounds great! Not exactly sure who made it though - surely German work from the late 19th or early 20th century, but would love to know the maker/workshop and decade!

I see a few similarities with the work of the Karl Hermann workshop and Andreas Morelli brand, but curious to know what you think. 

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Thanks!

 

 

[jacobsaunders]

12 hours ago, Goffriller said:

 

 would love to know the maker/workshop and decade!

A forlorn hope. It is a Markneukirchen area trade violin, like100,000 siblings p.a., the best you could find out would be the “Trade Mark” of the importer/wholesaler

[FiddleDoug]

11 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Jacob, I'd like to ask you on the occasion of this post.
I saw the violin (100% imported from Germany) - production, around the 1920s.
There was an inscription on the label ...
'Copie de ... Stradivari ... and other crap' (without the name of the trading company or creator).
The question is. Is it a German violin with a 'French inscription', or a French one, once brought or sold to Germany?

You should know by now to not believe anything (other than possibly Made in Germany) that’s on the labels in these fiddles! Even if it says “Copy of”, it’s not a copy of.

[Dr. Mark]

1 hour ago, Renegade said:

saw the violin (100% imported from Germany) - production, around the 1920s.
There was an inscription on the label ...
'Copie de ... Stradivari ... and other crap' (without the name of the trading company or creator).
The question is. Is it a German violin with a 'French inscription', or a French one, once brought or sold to Germany?

You may want to rephrase your question - are you asking whether a different violin (than that of the OP) was built in France or Germany, based only on a French/imitation French label?

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Renegade said:

That's not what I mean !!! I know what to think about such labels (probably not). The point is that it says 'Copie de', not 'Copy' - it's all about the language ...

Someone brought this violin from Germany and is now selling it as German - I think he got something wrong :/

 

That's a kind of label which was inserted in Mirecourt usually in lower grade trade instruments, a very few times I saw it also in better ones. If thie violin was bought in Germany or at the Northpole doesn't mean anything, more important is the question wether it looks French made or even not.

Reg. the OP trademark, you would need to hope that somebody will have a catalogue or something similar with the name of the firm; this might teach you about the wholesaler, but not about the people being involved in making it.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

the OP violin says Copy Of not Copie de

[martin swan]

Renegade you have hijacked someone else's thread ... which is not really the done thing.

But many Berman violins were made with "copie de" labels. The violin in your photos is one of these and not Mirecourt.

[Wood Butcher]

I was just about to say the same about thread hijacking. Just makes for a confusing topic, as people are then making posts about different instruments, at the same time.

[Renegade Violin]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Renegade you have hijacked someone else's thread ... which is not really the done thing.

But many Berman violins were made with "copie de" labels. The violin in your photos is one of these and not Mirecourt.

Martin, thank you ... I will delete my entries. Goffriller - sorry, I got carried away: /

[Renegade Violin]

2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

the OP violin says Copy Of not Copie de

Yes, I was the one who made the confusion. The OP did not write anything like that.

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, martin swan said:

But many Berman violins were made with "copie de" labels. The violin in your photos is one of these and not Mirecourt.

Who was Berman? A British importer?

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Who was Berman? A British importer?

Typo, I meant German ...

[Blank face]

1 minute ago, martin swan said:

Typo, I meant German ...

I thought it was just a photocopied fake. Once I saw an original German “Copie de”label, but it had a completely different font.

[Renegade Violin]

9 hours ago, Blank face said:

I thought it was just a photocopied fake. Once I saw an original German “Copie de”label, but it had a completely different font.

Are you writing about photocopying ... do I understand correctly that someone (at the earliest) in the 40's, could have pasted the 'French label' on a German violin?

But I think 'Berman' exists  a typo in the title and www address
https://www.corilon.com/us/violins/sweet-sounding-violin-berman-bohemian

[jacobsaunders]

I think it fair to say that a label beginning with “Copie de” is mostly in French trade violins, and “Nachahmung von” or similar in so called “Markies”. A label starting with “Copy of” though hardly means that it was made in England/America. One should bear in mind that such labels were inserted by dealers/importers, not makers, and are as such not to be entirely trusted.

I have never heard of a “Berman” violin

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Renegade said:

 

But I think 'Berman' exists  a typo in the title and www address
https://www.corilon.com/us/violins/sweet-sounding-violin-berman-bohemian

That is also a typo ... 

[Renegade Violin]

28 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think it fair to say that a label beginning with “Copie de” is mostly in French trade violins, and “Nachahmung von” or similar in so called “Markies”. A label starting with “Copy of” though hardly means that it was made in England/America. One should bear in mind that such labels were inserted by dealers/importers, not makers, and are as such not to be entirely trusted.

I have never heard of a “Berman” violin

Brilliantly simple and comprehensive explanation, that's what I thought ... Thank you

[Renegade Violin]

28 minutes ago, martin swan said:

That is also a typo ... 

From today, for the violin as shown OP (and mine), we can called - 'Berman'

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think it fair to say that a label beginning with “Copie de” is mostly in French trade violins, and “Nachahmung von” or similar in so called “Markies”.

Not to be contradictory, but "copie de" is quite a rare occurence in a French trade violin. JTL instruments are usually just labelled "Vuilaume" or "Stradivarius" etc. The top level JTLs and Laberte used the phrase "modele d'apres etc."

I'm sure I've seen French violins with "copie de" on the label but I have also seen  good few German instruments with "copie de" labels (such as the one Renegade posted here), and always assumed that for a period the MK trade thought it was an advantage if their violins were thought to be French.

 

 

[Renegade Violin]

10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Not to be contradictory, but "copie de" is quite a rare occurence in a French trade violin. JTL instruments are usually just labelled "Vuilaume" or "Stradivarius" etc. The top level JTLs and Laberte used the phrase "modele d'apres etc."

I'm sure I've seen French violins with "copie de" on the label but I have also seen  good few German instruments with "copie de" labels (such as the one Renegade posted here), and always assumed that for a period the MK trade thought it was an advantage if their violins were thought to be French.

 

 

I have JTL - 'Copie de Nicolaus Amatius Cremoniea Hieroni 1676', but the 'German' ones (as you say) - I got stupid

That is why I asked whether it was German or French ... because why the Germans would not stick 'French labels'. They would even stick pre-Colombian if they could be sold

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Not to be contradictory, but "copie de" is quite a rare occurence in a French trade violin. JTL instruments are usually just labelled "Vuilaume" or "Stradivarius" etc. The top level JTLs and Laberte used the phrase "modele d'apres etc."

I'm sure I've seen French violins with "copie de" on the label but I have also seen  good few German instruments with "copie de" labels (such as the one Renegade posted here), and always assumed that for a period the MK trade thought it was an advantage if their violins were thought to be French.

This is what I have observed as well.

[Blank face]

Now the thread seems to have moved finally away from topic-nonetheless I looked up Zoebisch for informations regarding the OP question. Couldn’t find the requested trademark, but a note about Thibouville-Lamy having a storage of Saxon made instruments of all kind in Paris. This could explain the Copie labeled instruments and the blame would be on the French not the German.

Nonetheless I never found an original prewar label of exactly this type in a Vogtlandish violin, but some obviously switched over or recently laserprinted examples only, perhaps using the online published catalogues from the Terrier website as source. Therefore I would rather say that EBay crooks would even use Precolumbians for sale ability.

[Renegade Violin]

Do I understand correctly that you are inclined to the opinion that my 'copie de...' is finally German?

 

[Renegade Violin]

I knew that identifying and judging a violin it's very difficult ...
But such a 'mental traverse' - a French trader, buys a German violin, puts a French label on it, and sells it as French (also to Germany). Wow!

Do not take up this thread (pity your nerves) - this is just my reflection ...
Yours approach to the matter is also interesting
Sellers on Ebay you call cheaters (who sell such violins as French), and the trader from France ... who bought a German violins and put a French label on it, no longer: / (you say, no problem, that's how it was done) ... interesting.

I have already covered this topic, and I understand how common such activities are.
The point is that the contemporary poor musician who buys a French violin on Ebay (he thinks he is) was cheated by a French trader in the early 20th century, not by an Ebay seller.
The violin costs 300 Euro and no one will go to price it.

[Blank face]

36 minutes ago, Renegade said:

Do I understand correctly that you are inclined to the opinion that my 'copie de...' is finally German?

 

Exactly.

 

1 minute ago, Renegade said:

I knew that identifying and judging a violin it's very difficult ...
But such a 'mental traverse' - a French trader, buys a German violin, puts a French label on it, and sells it as French (also to Germany). Wow!

Do not take up this thread (pity your nerves) - this is just my reflection ...
Yours approach to the matter is also interesting
Sellers on Ebay you call cheaters (who sell such violins as French), and the trader from France ... who bought a German violins and put a French label on it, no longer: / (you say, no problem, that's how it was done) ... interesting.

I have already covered this topic, and I understand how common such activities are.
The point is that the contemporary poor musician who buys a French violin on Ebay (he thinks he is) was cheated by a French trader in the early 20th century, not by an Ebay seller.
The violin costs 300 Euro and no one will go to price it.

That's a misconception. Nothing at the "Copie de.." label is claiming that the instrument which is bearing it was made in France. This would need a note like "Fabrique in France", which isn't there.