recommendation's for archival paper for label.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

looking for a source who sells , and what thickness . thanks kevin 

[Rue]

I would think any art store would carry archival paper. 

As to thickness, 'normal' paper thickness will do.

[Jim Bress]

Hi Kevin,

When Addie designed my labels for me this was his paper recommendation.

Paper:

Southworth

Connoisseur Collection

Exceptional Resumé Paper

24lb.

100% Cotton

Color: Ivory

[Rue]

Now you made me go look! 

FWIW - Regular paper is 20lbs.  Standard archival paper has 25% cotton and will last 'in excess of 300 years'.

20lb paper in 100% cotton is used to print theses on...wonder what mine is printed on?  Given I haven't looked at for eons...does it matter how long it lasts? 

Then you'll have to consider the quality/chemistry of the ink you use.  I'm always surprised when people fuss with the paper, and then use a regular desk-top printer...

If you're only planning on using a small number of labels in your career, I think a neatly handwritten one would be nicer, both now...and 300+ years down the road! 

[Jim Bress]

Addie also recommended using a laser printer. Just passing on historical advice that served me well. 

[Rue]

Meh...gonna disagree with Addie on that one. 

If handwriting them is out of the question, I'd look into getting a stamp.  

Again though...if you're printing thousands of labels...maybe a printer makes more sense...but if you only need 10? 

Personal preferences aside...at the end of the day (be it today, next year or in 2320)...it really doesn't matter...

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Southworth makes good paper.  Eaton is quite good as well.  If you feel like it, get in touch with an art paper mill and buy some handmade laid paper.  It won’t disappoint.  
 
Gamblin etching ink is great stuff if you’re using a stamp or letterpress.  You can also make your own with a dirty candle, metal plate and boiled hard oil.  Send me a message if you want me to make you a stamp. 

[JacksonMaberry]

St. Armand in Montreal makes exquisite archival laid cotton/linen rag paper. Charbonnel makes the best copperplate inks I'm aware of. 

[TimRobinson]

In terms of the survival of paper in decent storage pretty much any alkaline sized paper is going to last in the hundreds of years.  As violins tend to be cared for well, I'd think storage conditions aren't a huge factor.  If the violin is so badly stored that the paper label is damaged that's likely to be the least of the problems.  I understand that most modern paper is alkaline sized now as acid sizing wasn't good for the machines. If you want a specific look to your labels there is much to choose from, and a 100% rag laid paper will look very nice.  However, as others have pointed out, the choice of ink will be important.  Some 19th century inks were quite acidic and have left pages like lace where the ink ate through  - mostly seen in the light tissue used for letterpress copies in my experience.

The other think to consider is the glue used to adhere the label and the possibility of contaminants migrating into the paper from the wood.  

Regards,

Tim

[Jim Bress]

13 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

St. Armand in Montreal makes exquisite archival laid cotton/linen rag paper. Charbonnel makes the best copperplate inks I'm aware of. 

Fancy 

[Michael Szyper]

There is a Cremonese luthier who destroys 18th century books for his labels. I strongly advise against the use of real ancient paper. The advices above are all great. 

[Rue]

48 minutes ago, Michael Szyper said:

There is a Cremonese luthier who destroys 18th century books for his labels. I strongly advise against the use of real ancient paper. The advices above are all great. 

That's rather awful, even if it  doesn't matter (as in the books aren't of particular value).  

And...it's one thing to say new paper will last 300 years...but old paper has already used up part of its life.

And...is there an element of 'fakery' involved?

[JacksonMaberry]

31 minutes ago, Rue said:

.is there an element of 'fakery' involved?

Probably! That's the violin trade for ya

[Michael Szyper]

13 hours ago, Rue said:

That's rather awful, even if it  doesn't matter (as in the books aren't of particular value).  

And...it's one thing to say new paper will last 300 years...but old paper has already used up part of its life.

And...is there an element of 'fakery' involved?

I don’t think so. So guys rather think that making good-ish violin copies makes them to great ones by using 300 year old paper for the label.

[avandesande]

9 hours ago, Michael Szyper said:

I don’t think so. So guys rather think that making good-ish violin copies makes them to great ones by using 300 year old paper for the label.

It would make it harder to fake a label

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

thanks for the help

is hyde glue the preferred glue 

 

[Bodacious Cowboy]

On 8/4/2022 at 5:04 PM, Michael Szyper said:

There is a Cremonese luthier who destroys 18th century books for his labels. I strongly advise against the use of real ancient paper. The advices above are all great. 

It’s not uncommon. I hate the idea. 
Going back to the OP question, I think paper thickness is a matter of personal taste. I don’t like it to be too thick, myself. For sticking in, regular hide glue if done before closing box, liquid hide glue if done after box closed.

[scordatura]

These labels look fantastic. Wonder where he gets his paper?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg7S4RjowDm/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Rue]

Wonder if he roughs up the edges of the papers and soaks them in tea (or coffee or onion skin) before he applies that lovely dense ink?

However...the couple of authentic old labels I've seen in situ...looked remarkably "new".

So..."over-aging' a label isn't very authentic. 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Rue
...my editing sucks...>:(

[scordatura]

27 minutes ago, Rue said:

Wonder if he roughs up the edges of the paperand soaks them in tea (or coffee or onion skin) begore he applies that lovely dense ink?

However...the couple of authentic old labels I've seen in situ...looked remarkably "new".

So..."over-aging' a label isn't very authentic. 

 

Yeah. The art of label making is a matter of personal taste. Like the art of antiquing an instrument. Could be some photo contrast manipulation. Care to display your labels?

[Rue]

I didn't ever make instrument labels.

I made labels while taking fine art courses (part of print making classes) and also for some other minor uses.

I love labels. 

p.s. FWIW...I never 'got into' paper-making...but I can/have made paper. 

I love paper. 

[Andrew tkinson]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:38 PM, saintjohnbarleycorn said:

thanks for the help

is hyde glue the preferred glue 

 

Hello,

In an old British Violin Making Association newsletter I read last year I recall there was an article where a paper conservator was discussing violin labels and I think she recommended a flour and water paste for gluing in labels?

After a quick search I found some information on "Wheat starch paste" so I thought it would be appropriate to paste a link here  https://www.canada.ca/en/conservation-institute/services/conservation-preservation-publications/canadian-conservation-institute-notes/wheat-starch-paste.html

This seems quite an elaborate procedure to go through just for one label? I found this recipe which seems a bit simpler but may not be up to museum standards?

https://www.handmadebooksandjournals.com/create-custom-books/other-bookmaking-techniques/making-wheat-paste/

 

 

[TimRobinson]

Methyl cellulose paste is used in bookbinding and used to be used by paper conservators (might still be, I haven't asked) and is available retail.

Regards,

Tim

 

PS - Edit - is available from reputable archival suppliers in Oz, so I assume it is OK.

Edited August 9, 2022 by TimRobinson
Update.

[Jim Bress]

12 hours ago, scordatura said:

These labels look fantastic. Wonder where he gets his paper?

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg7S4RjowDm/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I really like how the letters are recessed into the paper. Like we don't obsess enough about tiny details that nobody else cares about.  This thread may eventually cost me some money. I in large part blame @JacksonMaberry. Although the IG pic is awesome as well. I moved to a new city recently so I "need" to make new labels. And the files I received from Addie are not editable.