sharpening plane blades - help!

[ernym]

1 hour ago, Brad Dorsey said:

 

A Tormek, or any standard grinder, is only good for grinding the bevel; it won’t help with the flat side.

Another reason I chose the Tormek diamond wheel is the ability to grind on the flat side of the wheel because it too is diamond coated. So if you don't like a hollow ground then you grind on the side of the wheel but you have to buy the jig. Since the diamond wheels maintain there 10 inch diameter the hollow is very minimal. The smaller the diameter of the wheel the bigger the hollow. The diamond wheels come in three different grit sizes. I agree with Melvin it's gotta be fast and accurate. And I would add cleaner and less hassle.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:44 AM, baroquecello said:

So, I'm going at learning some of the craft of violin making nice and slow. One important step for me is to learn to sharpen tools.

Good luck!  There are many threads on MN concerning stones, grinders and guides.  Difficult to find consensus, which I think is understandable.  What works well for one person may not for another.  What's "fast" for one person may not so for another, etc. 

Anyway; I'll simply tell you what I use.

I've used hand grinders.  They're OK, but it takes a while to get comfortable holding the tool with one hand.  I've used high speed grinders.  A little care concerning temperature is a must and a good tool rest is handy... but I rarely use one now except when I want to really move metal. The high speed horizontal grinders (they spin like a record (or maybe more like  hard disk), but have cut outs so you can see the tool underneath the wheel) scared the heck out of me... possibly because my shop mates tended to dismantle the safety guards on them. When Tormek hit the market decades ago I grabbed one and used it till it rusted out.

I replaced the first unit with a T8. The machine makes sense to me, and I modified a table attachment for violin knives. For me, it's a real time saver, as I get a very easily honed tool off the wheel.  I also monitor and maintain  my tools well enough to be done grinding very quickly and on the stone fast when they need it.  I have several different kinds of stones, but am really very comfortable with  my old King 800/1200/8000 standbys and diamond lapping plate to keep them flat for most things... Shaptons are damn good though! I use a strop when appropriate.

I don't use jigs when going to the stones... No problem feeling the flat (or usually hollow) on the stone.  I do use a few of the Tormek jigs including my modified knife table on the grinder (which minimizes honing).

That's me.  Try your hand and talk with those who have systems that work for them.. and see what your comfort level is.  Speed is important, but being able to get the darn tool sharp is critical.

[Dennis J]

As I see it the most important thing is that the flat side of chisel and plane blades is just that, flat. They should not be polished, just flat with a fine matte finish, like Veritas blades out of the box.

I've resurrected a lot of plane, chisel and gouge blades and arriving at that level of flatness without deep scratches is time consuming. Old Stanley type plane blades are often buckled, but it is usually possible to get the last few millimetres of the blade flat, and that is all that is necessary.

I like Veritas tools but honing guides that run on a stone or diamond plate, especially when sharpening chisels, is messy and unnecessary. Hand sharpening is just as effective, although I use Veritas steel plates and diamond paste and kerosene (no rust) with wooden guides that run on the saw table when sharpening plane blades. It takes just about the same time to lay out the three plates (6, 3 and 1 micron paste) as it does to sharpen because the various blades I use are ground at the right angle and I keep the final bevel no wider than about 3mm. After sharpening I buff off any residual burr with honing compound, never touch the flat side with a stone or anything. In the case of Veritas plane blades the backs are perfectly flat and shouldn't be touched with anything, apart with a light buffing, or they are ruined.

 

[Rico Suave]

I've pretty much forsaken Water and Oil stones, save for Slips to use on Gouges.

I recently purchased some inexpensive Diamond Stones off Amazon and set to work to fettle some vintage Stanley (and the like) Planes I've acquired over the years.  While inexpensive, I found them to be suitably flat and wide (3"x 10"). The core of the 'stone' is aluminium. I use diluted Formula 409 Cleaner as a lube.

Rough Grind: 120/180 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08R5FY8V6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Refining: 150/400 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088ZHRYDF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sharpening: 400/1200 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088YMXTPT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use a Stanley Honing Guide (acquired years ago) with a shopmade jig to set the blade to grind at 25* and set the edge microbevel at 30*. 

The 120/180 is used to flatten Plane Soles, as well as rough work flattening the Plane Blade Backs and establishing the Blade bevel (don't forget to check the blade cutting edge with a square and true up if needed). The 150/400 is used to smooth out the rough grinds on the Sole and Blade (no need to go further than 400 on the Sole), and the 400/1200 is used to further smooth out the Blade Back.

I leave the blade bevel edge in a rough grind state (150/400) but I use Spyderco Ceramic Fine and Ultra Fine Stones to finish the microbevel cutting edge and blade backs, followed by stropping (wood backed leather).

A Slow Speed (1750 RPM) Grinder is sometimes used. Truing the wheels was a pain, but once done, the grinds are smooth and the machine runs with minimum shudder. https://www.woodcraft.com/products/rikon-8in-slow-speed-grinder

Paul Seller's Rag-in-a-can Oiler sees a lot of use to keep the Plane Bodies, Blades, Chisels and Gouges (usually) rust free. Instead of cans I use plastic Laundry Detergent Measuring Cups to hold the cloth and as a cap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npKo1y2e8RI

 

 

 

 

[Violadamore]

I hand sharpen my plane irons on a double sided  8 X 2 X 1 inch (20 X 5 X 2.5 cm) ruby and "jade" (actually an antigorite serpentinite also known as "bowenite", from the Suzhou region of China) oilstone.  The "jade" side acts like a strop.  Besides producing a very fine edge, the stone is also very pretty to look at, and stays flat.  Years ago, they used to be available on eBay for around 40 bucks.  I haven't seen them lately, though some solid sintered ruby ones of that size show up occasionally for around $70. 

[Bill Yacey]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:51 AM, baroquecello said:

Thank you all for your responses!

Yes, I just checked and my coarse 1000 stone is already hollowed out! This is not good.

I've tried sand paper on a glass plate, but have only clamped the paper and was not satisfied with the result. @Shunyata do you glue the paper to the glass? If so, what do you use?

 

The glass plate  / tombstone /  granite countertop with wet and dry sandpaper will always give you an absolute flat surface compared to a water stone. I would reserve the waterstones for gouges only, where they don't need to be flat.

Lee Valley sells a carborundum dressing stone for flattening waterstones, but it seems like a lot of effort and wear on the waterstones for minimal gain.

[Davide Sora]

24 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

Lee Valley sells a carborundum dressing stone for flattening waterstones, but it seems like a lot of effort and wear on the waterstones for minimal gain.

A diamond stone works better for this task, faster and above all it remains flat forever. If water stones are flattened with a certain regularity, without waiting for them to become very concave and irregular, the leveling time is not that much.

A good idea would be to use dedicated stones, one for gouges and one for planes, and others smaller (faster to flatten) for knives and small chisels, and other tools that tend to easily engrave the stone surface (scrapers, purfling chisels, etc.). However, the cost can be an issue, even if for a professional it would certainly be repaid in a short time.

[Urban Luthier]

18 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

The best modern plane blades are Veritas PMV11...you can retrofit them to other makes of plane

+1 the PMV11 blades are the finest I've tried. They get almost as sharp as the finest O1 and stay sharper longer than Lie-Nielsen blades. 

As for sharpening - Lie Nielsen has some excellent videos posted - many have mentioned the back bevel (I do this also - google David Charlesworth ruler trick). but only do the back bevel with our finest stone

Try to learn how to sharpen free hand without a jig - it is faster

[Urban Luthier]

forgot to mention that that a 10x loupe is useful as you can actually see when the burr has been removed.

[David Burgess]

"Sharpening stones" coated with sharp-edged diamonds will cut like a mofo at first!  But don't think that the diamond abrasive coating won't wear down, or that the diamonds won't fracture into a less abrasive shape.

I have retired every one I once tried, because they rather quickly cut slower and slower with use, and the surface could not be refreshed,  unlike some other sharpening "stones".

[Violadamore]

12 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

"Sharpening stones" coated with sharp-edged diamonds will cut like a mofo at first!  But don't think that the diamond abrasive coating won't wear down, or that the diamonds won't fracture into a less abrasive shape.

I have retired every one I once tried, because they rather quickly cut slower and slower with use, and the surface could not be refreshed,  unlike some other sharpening "stones".

Concur.  I also got wowed by DMT plates for a while and got over it.  OTOH, I have a variety of flat-faced, cylindrical, and tapered diamond-covered hand held sharpeners (by Smith and by Eze-Lap) that have held up well, but I don't use those on precision cutters like plane irons.  They are great for some knives.

[David Burgess]

20 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

The best modern plane blades are Veritas PMV11...you can retrofit them to other makes of plane

 

1 hour ago, Urban Luthier said:

+1 the PMV11 blades are the finest I've tried. They get almost as sharp as the finest O1 and stay sharper longer than Lie-Nielsen blades. 

As for sharpening - Lie Nielsen has some excellent videos posted - many have mentioned the back bevel (I do this also - google David Charlesworth ruler trick). but only do the back bevel with our finest stone

Try to learn how to sharpen free hand without a jig - it is faster

I haven't used the Veritas PMV11 blade, but a PM (Powdered Metal) knife blade I got from John Schmidt is the best I have ever used. Sharpens to a fine edge, sharpens quickly, and retains a fine and long-lasting edge through all sorts of abuse.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

34 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

I haven't used the Veritas PMV11 blade, but a PM (Powdered Metal) knife blade I got from John Schmidt is the best I have ever used. Sharpens to a fine edge, sharpens quickly, and retains a fine and long-lasting edge through all sorts of abuse.

The Veritas PMV11 sharpens real easy...just feels like the real deal when honing and keeps cutting for longer than anything I have on really cranky ebony. It was quite a revelation for me. I get your feeling re Diamond Sharpening stones. I doubt anyone would give them a harder workout than you. I hit them pretty hard too and regard them as expendable items and budget for that...They proclaim to last a lifetime which I don't find to be true but the top end cabinet makers who share my workshop complex tell me that theirs last forever because they use anti corrosion hohning additive to lubricate their diamond stones and I got t wrong to just use water. I seem to remember David that you use Shapton? I have never tried these. I must admit that I only use diamond plates for flat blades...for knives and gouges I use India, Washita. Arkansas. The biggest revelation I can give is using CBN high speed grinders to re set primary bevels...these cut fast and cool

[Peter K-G]

2 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

The Veritas PMV11 sharpens real easy...just feels like the real deal when honing and keeps cutting for longer than anything I have on really cranky ebony. It was quite a revelation for me. I get your feeling re Diamond Sharpening stones. I doubt anyone would give them a harder workout than you. I hit them pretty hard too and regard them as expendable items and budget for that...They proclaim to last a lifetime which I don't find to be true but the top end cabinet makers who share my workshop complex tell me that theirs last forever because they use anti corrosion hohning additive to lubricate their diamond stones and I got t wrong to just use water. I seem to remember David that you use Shapton? I have never tried these. I must admit that I only use diamond plates for flat blades...for knives and gouges I use India, Washita. Arkansas. The biggest revelation I can give is using CBN high speed grinders to re set primary bevels...these cut fast and cool

Melvin, thanks for posting!

We "amateurs" reads MN all the time and, some hopefully, learn something (I do all the time). This forum tend to not give credit to pros.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Sometimes you want the outside edges of the plane blade to be slightly rounded off, otherwise the corner of the blade will dig into the material, leaving a ridge. So a grind stone that is slightly curved instead of flat is not always a liability

[Dennis J]

I use the worn diamond plates that I have as indicator plates to test for flatness. I have only two that still work reasonably well. One is a Japanese one and the other an Eze Lap. They will flatten smaller, about 6 mm or so chisels, but not larger ones. In the past when I have bought new diamond plates to flatten larger old chisels they removed material reasonably well but left irregular deep scratches which were hard to remove with finer grades.

The only way I've been able to flatten larger chisels is to very, very slightly hollow grind the surface area behind the cutting edge with a soft aluminium oxide wheel and finish on a glass plate charged with silicon carbide grit, repeatedly. Very time consuming.

I believe Japanese chisels are hollow ground behind the cutting edge so that they can be kept flat with finer grit stones. I have lapped my Japanese chisels on a glass plate with silicon carbide grit. It only needs to be done once.

 

[baroquecello]

Thank you all for this wealth of information! Apparently, there are many ways of doing it more efficiently than I did. Now, which way to choose....

[Urban Luthier]

21 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

... I seem to remember David that you use Shapton? I have never tried these. 

I use these as well (shapton glass plates) - a 2000, 4000 and 12K stone - they cut really fast and only need gentle pressure - so very fast to use only a few passes if the blade is in good shape. Downside is they need to be flattened regularly and one needs be careful when sharpening gouges to not accidentally 'gouge' the stone. the work very well with the PMV11

Speaking of which I have a couple of the Veritas PMV-11 chisels and they work as well as the blades. Wish they would invest in making gouges - but I expect the tooling cost would be extreme. 

[David Burgess]

22 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I seem to remember David that you use Shapton?

Yes. The Shapton are the best and fastest that I have used so far. But I am far away from having tried everything.

It's hard to cram everything I'd like to exhaustively test into one lifetime.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

23 hours ago, Melvin Goldsmith said:

I must admit that I only use diamond plates for flat blades...for knives and gouges I use India, Washita. Arkansas. 

Why is that, Melvin? 

[John Harte]

In terms of sharpening stones, I mostly use Shaptons that I have bought on various trips to Kappabashi in Tokyo.  For years I used diamond plates to true waterstones but more recently have used a couple of these: https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/syusei/ss-2/  These were recommended by various knife shops in Kappabashi.  I like how they work.

[JacksonMaberry]

I want to echo Melvin to express my admiration for the CBN wheel. After using an ordinary bench grinder with a white wheel, I was rather surprised but just how well the chunky metal CBN wheel draws the heat away from the blade. Of course like anything with friction, it will get hot eventually. But the wheel is aggressive enough to get the work done before that happens. I use an 180 grit wheel, but there are other options. I have it mounted to a DC motor with a speed control. 

Most amazing to me is that, because of how cool it grinds, you can grind right up to the absolute edge when shaping a tool for the first time or refreshing a hollow. I was in a mad rush at one point and took it directly off the wheel to a 10k grit Sigma Power II stone, and it was as sharp is could have imagined. 

However, my typical process is to take it from the wheel to a 1k Sigma, then a 6k, and lastly the 10, at which point there is no question as to the sharpness. 

I have not tried everything either, this is just what I've arrived at and like. It satisfies the requirements Melvin succinctly stated - it is fast,  and it is effective. 

Waterstones will dish, and the sigmas are very soft. They are extremely aggressive, however, and I can take the tool from the wheel and make just a couple of swipes on each stone, without any pressure above registering the hollow to the stone, and then on to the next. As a result the stones dish very little because they are not much used. 

I do sharpen fingerplanes blades and gouges differently, however. On those, I use a 1x42" belt grinder I put together from a lee valley kit, using 3M trizact belts from 80 (shaping) to 6 (polishing) microns, and finish on a leather belt charged with green compound, running the machine in reverse (edge trailing). 

On gouges, in between grits I make two passes on the backs with a hard white slip stone. 

[Gary M]

You can make your own carbide "grease" to impregnate leather (or other porous synthetics) for sharpening, honing and stropping cutting tools with easily purchased powered carbide and well, just plain grease, either petroleum or synthetic. The substrate can be molded/cut to match gouge and knife shapes to meet your particular needs. I do 300, 600 and 1000 to keep things tuned up.  Get some good stuff not the kind used for rock tumbling (too inconsistent) and fair warning it can get a bit messy to set it all up.  CBN wheels make short work of the big stuff. They are a game changer.

All that said I have a very flat old oil stone, inherited from my Dad, that I swear by for big chisel and plane blades. Maybe that is just nostalgia.

[GoPractice]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:04 AM, Urban Luthier said:

forgot to mention that that a 10x loupe is useful as you can actually see when the burr has been removed.

An important thought for those drifting towards higher end sharpening. My observations will be shallow compared to the experts.

I own several scopes. A shop has borrowed my pretty Euro model. There is a Nikon here that was used in tech years ago and is expensive and a pain to use and takes up space, but it is set up. I certainly use it for more than observing blades.

The burr, or a rolled edge is one thing. But micro serrations make a difference when cutting certain materials for those of us less skillful than those who do this everyday. Though there are no excuses for the past year or two... when one performs every other day, wood/ metal/ gardening/ concrete pouring working is not very good for the arms or the hands. I enjoy scraping tops but reducing down the ribs can irritate the hands. Even thinning bridges with a LN 102 can result in some intonation issues at night.

In prepping and using a blade or gouge, it is very helpful to be examine the before and after of a sharpening and a cutting/ scraping/ gouging. It has taught me quite a bit. I am not great at sharpening. I have the patience to improve a chainsaw, but compared to those on this site and their friends, the quality of sharpening is not as good.

1) It takes time. 2) It takes practice. 3) It takes observations.

Not in any particular order.

My ears serve me in audio work. I calibrate almost weekly.

Eyes and sound and feel help with sharpening. I finished purchasing an overlapping set of of stones perhaps a good 10 years after working in the first shop, so my late 20s. The process is not inexpensive. Nor does spending hours on a stone every day improve the sharpening process. 

My eyes were never great. This one guy at one shop sharpened most of our blades. He was always asking me to buy better blades or purchase more knives because I kept blunting the edges too much. This guys eyes were worse; he wore thicker glasses. But sharpening a variety of blades, getting criticisms, and doing it everyday made him an expert. When I sharpened my own knives, they were never as sharp. He would, on occasion, use a loupe. I never asked him what or how he did it, but it was clear that he was inspecting the work.

I would like a T8. I have a Worksharp and low speed grinders, and they get me closer. And costs, however high, has been less than the price of most Tormek products. I do want a leather wheel, though. The sound it makes is so different than the grinding and scraping one makes on minerals.

The diamond plate is from Japan, but have not used it in several years. It was sourced from a shop in Northern California. Can not find the name or the old packaging. It is more expensive than the DMTs but last a longer? The are 4 DMT plates I have ( stacked on shelf ) are used for stropping. No. If time is not an issue, I use them to buff the edge. Buy DMT plates used from Hobbyists who spent 10min on their Titanium handled "hunting" knives. Given a choice, I would not to hunt with a knife. Plants do not put up so much of a fight though some berries have thorns. A student practicing at a campsite near Yellowstone attracted animals. Her dad told her to quit playing.

King, Deluxe - Suehiro among so many ( maybe 30? ) make up many of the new and used stones that have been purchased. Many cut at different rates. Have granite and glass for sanding down.

Observations about not touching the backs of fine blades make sense. I have two low angle right handed planes because I could not stop prepping them. But here is where I fail or am a failure. There were/ are plenty of excellent makers without the benefit of the finest tools. My most recent Italian purchase, 2 yrs old? has so many flaws, that it looks as if it were made with sharpened plated butter knives. My observant students keep asking what the scratches are on the top. It's under the varnish! This is rough work. I have to explain that some times when a violinist and a violinmaker love each other... Instruments do not have to look great to sound great. 

[DarylG]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:27 PM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

 I do use a few of the Tormek jigs including my modified knife table on the grinder (which minimizes honing).

Hi Jeffrey!

Would you be willing to elaborate on your modified knife table? I recently got a Tormek clone and bought the Tormek flat tool rest for it but found I can't adjust it to work for the lower bevel angles of knives. I experimented with clamping an old plane iron to the tool rest to extend the platform so that I can set the desired bevel angle and still have the platform reach the stone. It worked well enough to prove that I was on the right track, but I'm curious about what solutions you've come up with. Thanks,