sharpening plane blades - help!

[baroquecello]

So, I'm going at learning some of the craft of violin making nice and slow. One important step for me is to learn to sharpen tools. I recently got a 1000 grit and an 8000 grit waterstones (King-brand), and a veritas honing guide jig. I've been trying my luck on two chisels and three plane blades. The chisels (12 and 25 MM) worked fine, even if the 12 MM one was really beat up, I was capable of making a nice mirror side and a good bevel. The 25 MM seems to be of higher quality steel and it was harder to get a good mirror side, but eventually I did manage. I have problem getting good results for the plane blades.

 

As I'm only learning and don't want to mess up expensive stuff, I thought I'd start off with getting some second hand planes and resre them to working order. I got a Nooitgedagt Nr4 (I'd say 60 years old), which is similar to a Stanley nr 4, I think, and two wooden ones. The problems with the sharpening of the blades are similar for all three. They are 4.5, 4.7 and 5 CM wide and 3, 2.5 and 4.5 MM thick respectively, and the third one is composed of two layers of steel. I have three different bevels (25, 30 and 35 degrees respectively). The problems I have are 1. it takes an awful amount of time to get anywhere, especially what the mirror side is concerned, but also to get the bevel right. he amount of steel removed even by the 1000 grit is very small. On the second blade for instance, I think I worked eight or ten hours on it and it is nowhere near as nice as I'd like, (although it is straight and sharp now). At first, the blade was concave, so I had to get it to become flat. Now that is flat, I am having difficulty getting a mirror finish on the outer edges (2mm), in other words, I wonder if it now is slightly convex. The second problem I have, again with all three blades, is that the steel tarnishes very quickly. Even the mirror sides and bevels, which I've polished up to an almost mirror like finish, tarnish within the hour. The parts which only fulfil mechanical functions (and thus are only sanded) start rusting even quicker. I assume that maybe the steel doesn't like to be wet 8 hours at a time, but is this quick tarnishing really normal? Are these blades of a terrible quality? Or does steel deteriorate not only on the surface, but also deeper? Are there other solutions, or should I just get new high quality blades?

[ernym]

57 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

So, I'm going at learning some of the craft of violin making nice and slow. One important step for me is to learn to sharpen tools.

 

Not trying to be a smart-ass but if money is not a problem then I'd invest in a Tormek wet grinder. I  recently purchased one and wish I had done it sooner. I purchased the T8 with the fine diamond and leather honing wheel. I've sharpened my planes blades on Shapton wetstones and a LN honing guide which worked well but the Tormek is way faster and now all of my tools are sharper than they have ever been. Sharpening gouges used to be a PITA but now it's a breeze and takes only a few minutes.

I bought the Grizzly wet grinder version when I first started out and use that now for removing a lot of material but it really doesn't compare with the Tormek.

IMO it is well worth the investment even if you don't stick with violinmaking, it will sharpen everything that needs to be sharp. 

Also sounds like you might need some better blades.

[Brad Dorsey]

1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

...it takes an awful amount of time...to get the bevel right. [T]he amount of steel removed even by the 1000 grit is very small...I think I worked eight or ten hours on it...

You could have done it in a few minutes with a grinder.

 

1 hour ago, baroquecello said:

...I assume that maybe the steel doesn't like to be wet 8 hours at a time, but is this quick tarnishing really normal?...

No.  Your experience makes me wonder if there's something (acid?) in your water causing this reaction.  I wouldn't expect steel to normally rust from 8 hours of constant immersion in water.  Instead, I would expect it to possibly rust after it were removed from the water as the metal reacted with the oxygen in the air and the remaining water, it you didn't wipe it dry.  

[FiddleDoug]

There is no way that I would spend that amount of time sharpening a blade! I have been taught a method the reduces the time to minutes. I think that it's the same method that Brad has been taught. This was taught by a master restorer, and it works great. The Tormek is a great machine, but is expensive.

The method that I have been taught is to use a dry, higher speed grinder, with a white, aluminum oxide wheel, and proper rests, to carefully do a basic hollow grind on the edge of the blade. After that, you are just holding an angle on the stones to just work on the very cutting edge. It might take a minute or two on each stone.

[FiddleDoug]

I would also add a 4000 or 6000 (or both) stone to your tools. Going from 1000 to 8000 is too much. I also have a 12000 grit stone that I finish on.

[Shunyata]

Agreed have a range of grits.  An issue with stones, however, especially when you are doing such heavy removal is that you can quickly lose "flat", especially on inexpensive stones.  You must keep the stone surface flat.

Myself, I use 3M abrasive papers and float glass.  The papers give me a wide range of grits, and the float glass never loses its flatness. There are pros and cons to the paper approach... or any other approach.  Try a few things and see what works for you.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

Hi Baroquecello

Think you have 2 problems here. First, you're trying to "renovate" old plane blades that might be very far from flat, and could take an awful lot of work to flatten (on the non-bevel side). Second, a 1000 grit stone is far too fine for this job. A grinder won't help you with what you're calling the "mirror" side. I'd suggest 80 grit sandpaper glued to a flat glass plate as Shunyata suggests, or you could treat yourself to a coarse diamond plate (eg a 120 grit Atoma). 

And people will argue until hell freezes over about the pros/cons of going straight from (say) a 1000 to 8000 (or so) grit. Personally I think that's absolutely fine (it's what I do, with excellent results), and I can say with confidence that this isn't your problem. Check out Paul Sellers's YouTubes on sharpening with diamond plates and a strop.

Good luck - I don't even want to think about spending 8 hours sharpening a plane blade..

[Brad Dorsey]

39 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

...you're trying to "renovate" old plane blades that might be very far from flat, and could take an awful lot of work to flatten (on the non-bevel side). Second, a 1000 grit stone is far too fine for this job. A grinder won't help you with what you're calling the "mirror" side. I'd suggest 80 grit sandpaper glued to a flat glass plate...

Right.  Polishing the flat side is quite a different process than sharpening the bevel side.  You could start by flattening it with 80 grit paper.  This would leave a lot of pretty deep scratches, so you would want to shift to progressively finer grits.  Each one would remove the scratches left by the previous grit, and you would eventually arrive at the mirror surface you want.  This is a much more efficient method than doing the whole thing with a 1000 grit stone.

[Bill Yacey]

Even with a 1000 grit stone, it'll take awhile to get it to where it needs to be. I would include a 200 or so for rough shaping.

[baroquecello]

Thank you all for your responses!

Yes, I just checked and my coarse 1000 stone is already hollowed out! This is not good. I was hoping I could forego the purchase of a Tormek by using some elbow grease. It is an expensive machine, but this amount of elbow grease is too much, and now I'm seriously considering. I saw a Tormek t-4 for 350,- Euros, which is cheaper than I thought it would be.

I've tried sand paper on a glass plate, but have only clamped the paper and was not satisfied with the result. @Shunyata do you glue the paper to the glass? If so, what do you use?

And yes, I had the feeling going from 1000 to 8000 with nothing in between is a bit fast. It is very much work to get a shiny finish with an 8000 after the 1000.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

6 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

 

And yes, I had the feeling going from 1000 to 8000 with nothing in between is a bit fast. It is very much work to get a shiny finish with an 8000 after the 1000.

Don't get obsessed with a flawless mirror finish. All that matters is that the blade cuts wood efficiently. Unless you want to make sharpening into a hobby.

[ernym]

25 minutes ago, baroquecello said:

Thank you all for your responses!

Yes, I just checked and my coarse 1000 stone is already hollowed out! This is not good. I was hoping I could forego the purchase of a Tormek by using some elbow grease. It is an expensive machine, but this amount of elbow grease is too much, and now I'm seriously considering. I saw a Tormek t-4 for 350,- Euros, which is cheaper than I thought it would be.

And don't forget you need to sharpen those gouges too. Flat stones and abrasives on glass worked for me for years but the gouges were never as sharp as they needed to be. I still use a flat diamond stone on my small knives because it's quick, a couple of swipes and a few strops and I'm there. The Tormek was expensive but once I used it there was no going back.

Which ever way you go I wish you many pleasant hours of violin making.

edit: This thread reminds me that I can now sell my Shapton water stones...

[David Burgess]

baroquecello;

First off, I will suggest that just purchasing a good contemporary plane with a good blade, like a Lie Nielsen or Veritas, will be a lot less expensive than extensive futzing around with old planes, unless your time isn't worth anything, and your main passion is futzing around with old planes.

Second, there is no need to make the backside of the blade flat, if one uses a microbevel

[Bodacious Cowboy]

9 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

baroquecello;

First off, I will suggest that just purchasing a good contemporary plane with a good blade, like a Lie Nielsen or Veritas, will be a lot less expensive than extensive futzing around with old planes, unless your time isn't worth anything, and your main passion is futzing around with old planes.

Second, there is no need to make the backside of the blade flat, if one uses a microbevel

Wise words. When you've taken yourself to the brink of insanity with your blades, you'll probably find the soles of your planes aren't flat, and another can of worms opens. I know some people get a huge kick out of renovating old planes, but it ain't my cup of meat. I have to  say that I personally prefer old Stanley planes to the contemporary premium variety, but only because I know a good guy with a surface grinder who will do a wonderful job of flattening soles for beers.

 

[David Burgess]

35 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

I have to  say that I personally prefer old Stanley planes to the contemporary premium variety, but only because I know a good guy with a surface grinder who will do a wonderful job of flattening soles for beers.

Heard a good romantic song on the radidio today, while tuned to the country station:

The words went something like, "Babe you and I are the perfect fit, like good-ol'-boys and beer". 

[Jim Bress]

Something doesn't seem right here, or I didn't read carefully enough. I think in 10 hrs. I could probably sharpen a brick with my personality.  Seriously though, I wonder if some step is being missed that has you chasing the edge. The basic steps that should get you a sharp edge are:

1. Make sure your stones are flat.

2. Flatten the back (mirror side). For a plane iron I make a micro-bevel by putting a cheap 150 mm rule under the iron near the edge of the stone with the iron going across the stone so that the iron's cutting edge is at the other edge of the stone, and create a small bevel that goes all the way across the edge. Once the bevel goes from side to side you're done.

3. Flip over and begin sharpening the bevel side. If you are using a veritas jig maintaining a consistent angle shouldn't be an issue. You should sharpen at your coarsest stone until you have a bur all the way across the edge of the blade back. If you don't get a bur you're not done. When you do get a bur you're done and can move to the next grit without removing the bur.

4. Sharpen through the grits long enough to remove the previous grits scratches. This part should be relatively quick.

5. Once you've sharpened to your finest grit, freshen up your micro-bevel or back while removing the bur. This takes about 5 seconds. You may want to hone the bevel a couple of passes if you had a lot of work to do on the back removing the bur. If you hone enough you will need to hone the back again.

-Jim

[Bodacious Cowboy]

18 minutes ago, Jim Bress said:

3. Flip over and begin sharpening the bevel side. If you are using a veritas jig maintaining a consistent angle shouldn't be an issue. You should sharpen at your coarsest stone until you have a bur all the way across the edge of the blade back. If you don't get a bur you're not done. When you do get a bur you're done and can move to the next grit without removing the bur.

This is key. So often, beginners waste hours polishing the part of the blade that never touches the wood. No burr, no cigar.

[ernym]

One last thing about Tormek I think is worth mentioning. Before you buy, do some research.  Their YouTube video's explain how the machine operates and the differences between the models. I also was considering a T4 but after watching the video about the different grinding wheels I chose the T8. Mainly because the diamond wheels are only made for the 10" T8. The diamond wheels have the advantage of not wearing down like the original and Japanese water stones that require re-dressing. So the diameter of the wheel stays at 10".  For me this is a big advantage.

I just wanted to mention this since you are contemplating buying a T4. Spend a little time watching their videos before buying, especially helpful are their sharpening videos which explain how to use the various jigs.

[Shunyata]

2 hours ago, baroquecello said:

Thank you all for your responses!

Yes, I just checked and my coarse 1000 stone is already hollowed out! This is not good. I was hoping I could forego the purchase of a Tormek by using some elbow grease. It is an expensive machine, but this amount of elbow grease is too much, and now I'm seriously considering. I saw a Tormek t-4 for 350,- Euros, which is cheaper than I thought it would be.

I've tried sand paper on a glass plate, but have only clamped the paper and was not satisfied with the result. @Shunyata do you glue the paper to the glass? If so, what do you use?

And yes, I had the feeling going from 1000 to 8000 with nothing in between is a bit fast. It is very much work to get a shiny finish with an 8000 after the 1000.We have 

3M makes papers with an adhesive backing.  Search for:

3M (TM) 7 Sheet 4-1/4 inch x 11 inch PSA Lapping Microfinishing Film

[Davide Sora]

5 hours ago, baroquecello said:

I've tried sand paper on a glass plate, but have only clamped the paper and was not satisfied with the result. @Shunyata do you glue the paper to the glass? If so, what do you use?

And yes, I had the feeling going from 1000 to 8000 with nothing in between is a bit fast. It is very much work to get a shiny finish with an 8000 after the 1000.

If the sandpaper is of the type to be used wet, it is sufficient to wet it with water to ensure the adhesion of the paper to the glass. I do this when I sharpen some plane blades using the jig to hold the blade. The water and the pressure of the jig wheel hold everything in place perfectly flat.

Using these jigs, an aggressive diamond stone (300 grit or less) is enough to use instead of the grinding wheel. Just a bit slower, but not that much. I use the same diamond stone also to flatten the other finer water stones, very useful

[Brad Dorsey]

8 hours ago, baroquecello said:

…I was hoping I could forego the purchase of a Tormek…

You can.  Although I’ve heard they are great, you can use any ordinary bench grinder — electric or hand-cranked — to hollow-grind the bevel.  I have two electric ones that I bought at yard sales for $15 and $25.  You will need some way to hold the blade at a constant angle to the wheel.  I use the Veritas fixture that has been mentioned.

A Tormek, or any standard grinder, is only good for grinding the bevel; it won’t help with the flat side.

Edit:  It seems that I have been corrected on this last point by charliemaine.

[Peter K-G]

I have had great plane blades after buying this 

And a flat piece of stone table, using different fine sand paper from Mirka

[Melvin Goldsmith]

To get work done sharpening must be perfect but take minimal time.

I found a Tormek too slow costing me time and money making violins. I use a high speed Cubic Boron Nitride (CBN) Grinder  for primary bevels and DMT diamond stones to sharpen the cutting bevel finished by stropping on the leather wheel on a Tormek.

A craftsman should instinctively know the angles used to use a sharpened chisel and to grind and hone one and the same with plane blades. I have never used honing guides but know top pro's that do.

What ever works fast is good and must be done perfect but if you are making your living as a craftsman you don't get paid for taking time to sharpen your tools and nor should your clients be paying for that time...gotta be done perfect and FAST!

Edited July 25, 2022 by Melvin Goldsmith
spelling!

[Melvin Goldsmith]

The best modern plane blades are Veritas PMV11...you can retrofit them to other makes of plane

[Peter K-G]

I have a Scheppach, that's not a Tormek, but the only thing I use it for nowadays is the leather wheels and sharpening axes for chopping fire wood.