Baroque Transitional violin I just bought

[Strad O Various Jr.]

18 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

To declare something “unaltered” one needs a second example that is also like it. You will look long and hard to find one with a doorstep of a wedge under the fingerboard like that

Yes, normally one would have to go back to the earlier Baroque period to see that pronounced a wedge, but then this is still appropriate to what some HIP players are looking for

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Yes, normally one would have to go back to the earlier Baroque period to see that pronounced a wedge, but then this is still appropriate to what some HIP players are looking for

The reason I posted photos of my half size was to have something from the same (or close) origin and period to compare. But there is more which I would take into consideration.

Even speaking from earlier periods such an enormous wedge would be more the exception than the rule. Comparing f.e. the necks from the Schreinzer collection (last photo) we can see some rather thick fingerboards, but none with such an extreme taper.

But here we are looking at 19th century Saxon/Bohemian/Salzkammergut instruments, about which I would think as Biedermeier (like Köpp called the bows from this period https://tarisio.com/archet-revolutionnaire/kai-koepp-french-or-german-bows-for-beethoven/), resembling some traditional features of construction but aiming mostly to a public which was more or less adapting the "modern" neck attachment. 

I had also many of these for musicians looking for an effortable period instrument and found always, that violins bearing a maple wedge like in picture two had a later fingerboard, usually ebony, while the venered or colored FBs which were supposedly original hadn't a seperated wedge, but were tapered in themselves (1 and 3).

The only exception was a sort of unusual, very large Salzkammergut, maybe even meant as a small viola, with a very short neck, but the FB unfortunately not original anymore. I'm assuming that these instruments were just meant for some rural hobby musician playing some rather simple tunes in the first position, but not for any professionels.

A last point might be that ribs standing rectangular at the neck heel are a red herring, because the lowering of the neck angle, or better to sa the rising of the belly happens at different regions between the upper and the lower block, and that in my experience the height (or missing height) of the overstand can't tell much about the date of making, though this is often claimed.

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I have no trouble admitting that for the supposedly late date, the neck angle and pronounced wedge to the fingerboard are unusual to say the least, but I do have the instrument in hand, and given The "abilities" of the restorer in 1914, I don't see how he could have carried out any major modifications of the neck angle and fingerboard without leaving traces of modification, of which I can find none. This is a solid maple? fingerboard, stained black, no ebony veneer on surface.

The wedge effect is no bigger than your third example Blank, so Its not unheard of

[jacobsaunders]

The alternative (my) diagnose would be that the neck of your violin came adrift, and the “colleague” in 1914 stuck it back willy-nilly, adding glue blocks etc. to shore up the neck/back joint as best he could. In doing this he got the neck into a much shallower angle, and resolved that problem with a massive wedge. To get it back to any believable “original condition” it would be necessary to remove all the glue blocks and gunk, clean the neck root/back surfaces, and re-glue it to a functional angle. I know a very similar violin in (yes really) “original condition”, and I will try to borrow it and post some pictures for you. Anyone trying to play it with a wedge like that will feel like a left handed spastic.

[Blank face]

30 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

The wedge effect is no bigger than your third example Blank, so Its not unheard of

What I was trying to say was that this was a real outlier, LOB of 37 cm with a neck scale of 12 and I couldn't even tell if it was original angled this way. What was standard in the period was most probably different.

Or like someone who should have known it told me long ago "If it's Baroque, for certain people it has to sound like sh..." one would have to add "....and it's rather unplayable". Probably not the best way to seek.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

The question to me is not whether the violin is  appropriate to the late 1800s period, but rather if it is an appropriate set up for an early 1700s type violin, a genuine example of which would obviously be much more expensive

 

[Blank face]

18 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

The question to me is not whether the violin is  appropriate to the late 1800s period, but rather if it is an appropriate set up for an early 1700s type violin, a genuine example of which would obviously be much more expensive

For comparison you can look at the 2nd example from above at the Schreinzer photo, which is tagged "original D.Montagnana".

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Just bought this transition violin on ebay for $212, two of our experts recommended it to me as being a much better deal than the previous one

click on the top left corner then scroll down

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255648894845?hash=item3b85dc8f7d:g:-3QAAOSwEb5i2AuD

[deans]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Just bought this transition violin on ebay for $212, two of our experts recommended it to me as being a much better deal than the previous one

click on the top left corner then scroll down

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255648894845?hash=item3b85dc8f7d:g:-3QAAOSwEb5i2AuD

Its in better condition. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

my OP violin has pretty much the same amount of wedge as these original Stradivari fingerboards

 

 

 

Actually a bit less on mine

[jacobsaunders]

52 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

my OP violin has pretty much the same amount of wedge as these original Stradivari fingerboards

Would you like me to send you a label to go with it?

[deans]

A good book by someone who has probably equipped more serious early instrument performers than anyone.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Shapes_of_the_Baroque.html?id=EswZGQAACAAJ

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Another thing the 1914 repairman only used casein glue, the fingerboard is not glued with casein, so must at least predate him, and he is the one that seemed to do something to the neck block join, which people are claiming involved resetting the neck angle.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

my OP violin has pretty much the same amount of wedge as these original Stradivari fingerboards

 

 

 

Actually a bit less on mine

I'd consider reshaping the heel of that neck while you're doing everything else. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

12 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

I'd consider reshaping the heel of that neck while you're doing everything else. 

Why, because its too bulky?

[JacksonMaberry]

7 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Why, because its too bulky?

Right, a little too much mass in the wrong places for the "thumb stop"

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Well I finished the repairs and set up to the OP violin and strung with Gamut Heavy+ gauge gut strings, very good sound, a lot better than a Mittenwald Lions head violin I have in baroque set up, so I think it was a good purchase with good result

[BassClef]

Wonderful thread. I can't stop thinking that the back of the head is most certainly high on craque. Can we see a photo of the tailpiece that you were originally excited about until you realized that it too was totalled?

[BassClef]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:48 PM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Well I finished the repairs and set up to the OP violin and strung with Gamut Heavy+ gauge gut strings, very good sound, a lot better than a Mittenwald Lions head violin I have in baroque set up, so I think it was a good purchase with good result

Wonderful, can you post a video of it being played so we can hear the very good sound?

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I'll be posting some pictures when my camera battery charges up, I don't have any recording equipment

[BassClef]

7 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I'll be posting some pictures when my camera battery charges up, I don't have any recording equipment

Does your phone or computer have a camera? If so you can record a clip for us this way, I cannot wait to see and hear the violin! Congrats.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

here are the pics of the violin and the old tailpiece, not the years of chin wear that appears to be natural not artificial, the tailpiece was ruined by some idiot drilling 4 holes for fine tuners. The fingerboard had to be leveled to correct the dish and restained black, the two piece nut was replaced with a new solid one., I don't have a cell phone and my computer has no microphone or camera.

 

 

As you can see, after a bump was planed out in the middle of the fingerboard to get the correct dish, the fingerboard wedge is quite normal, not excessive at all IMHO

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I just bought  a Herdim 1/20 taper reamer and peg shaver, but they were both a little on the sharp side and I had a mishap reaming the e string hole and had to bush it. What I like about 1/20 taper tools is if the violin is old and close to 1/20 taper you remove a lot less wood to fit new pegs than if you ream to modern 1/30 taper. Metropolitan Music sells bot the Herdim 1/20 reamer and peg shaver, but go easy with them they are really sharp and the peg shaver might need to be adjusted to not cut as aggressively

[jacobsaunders]

Here is the violin I promised to post for you. Along with you're OP violin it is a tiger striped one with painted stripes and purfling. Such violins were made both in Vogtland/Egerland as well as in the Salzkammergut, and are often virtually impossible to tell apart. One telltale hint is the fingerboard, the Salzkammergut ones being maple painted black and the Vogtland/Egerland ones pine veneered with stained pearwood. If someone has replaced the board, you can be left scratching your head. These violins are from the 19h C, so that many would reject a classification as “transitional” since they are a bit late.

The reason for posting it, is the neck angle, which is undisturbed from day one. Here the neck/scroll isn’t beech like yours, but maple, and the original board is maple painted black (i.e. Salzkammergut), although the black paint has been worn off where it was played (seems they had a pretty virtuoso repertoire!)

The violin has a through neck which is 13,3 cm long from belly edge to nut, has an “Überstand” of 2,5mm and a projection (to the bridge) of 26mm

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, jacobsaunders said:

Here is the violin I promised to post for you. Along with you're OP violin it is a tiger striped one with painted stripes and purfling. Such violins were made both in Vogtland/Egerland as well as in the Salzkammergut, and are often virtually impossible to tell apart. One telltale hint is the fingerboard, the Salzkammergut ones being maple painted black and the Vogtland/Egerland ones pine veneered with stained pearwood. If someone has replaced the board, you can be left scratching your head. These violins are from the 19h C, so that many would reject a classification as “transitional” since they are a bit late.

The reason for posting it, is the neck angle, which is undisturbed from day one. Here the neck/scroll isn’t beech like yours, but maple, and the original board is maple painted black (i.e. Salzkammergut), although the black paint has been worn off where it was played (seems they had a pretty virtuoso repertoire!)

The violin has a through neck which is 13,3 cm long from belly edge to nut, has an “Überstand” of 2,5mm and a projection (to the bridge) of 26mm

Photos didn't make it, Meister.