jérôme thibouville Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy & C. - 'Copie de Nicolaus Amatius Cremoniea Hieroni - mi filius Antoni Nepos Fecit 1676'

[Renegade Violin]

Hi, this is my next purchase.
Unfortunately the photos are old so you don't see their charm.
They are already after cleaning and maintenance, the varnish looks beautiful (I used professional agents).
There are no open cracks and repairs. They are very light.
Purchased with the original wooden case.

From what I have learned, part of the production/sales of 'Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy & C.' had two lines: student instruments (eg the Médio-Fino and Compagnon ranges) and copies of makers ranging from Stainer and Klotz to Stradivari, as well as instruments named after old violin making-families from Mirecourt and other French makers.
My label says: 'Copie de Nicolaus Amatius Cremoniea Hieroni - mi filius Antoni Nepos Fecit 1676'.

Is it legitimate to say that mine represent the second line?
Can you help me determine their systematics, date of produkcji (probably 1910) condition and approximate market value,
...and are they a 'worthy' representative of Mirecourt?

[jacobsaunders]

3 hours ago, Renegade said:

 

From what I have learned, part of the production/sales of 'Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy & C.' had two lines: student instruments (eg the Médio-Fino and Compagnon ranges) and copies of makers ranging from Stainer and Klotz to Stradivari, as well as instruments named after old violin making-families from Mirecourt and other French makers.
 

You can judge for yourself if that is all they had by leafing through their catalogue General Catalogue Thibouville of 1901. (luthiers-mirecourt.com)

[martin swan]

The JTL “Amati” really has nothing to do with Amati. It’s just a random label designation like every other JTL label.

in 1919 they were producing Amati labelled violins priced between about 70 and 700 francs.

Yours looks like it might come about a third of the way up the price range.

[Renegade Violin]

I am Junior Members so I have a limited number of daily posts.
Therefore, in this one post, I will provide two pieces of information:

1. Jacob, why after each of your posts, I have a couple of days of hard work? …thank you wery much for Link.

---

2. Relatively often meet opinions about the lack of any common features linking copies with originals (I'm talking about the ones with pasted labels). This is probably also true of other regions... (Oh my poor Anton Fischer

I wonder if among those produced in the workshop, there are any that, apart from the label, have at least the external features of the originals? I am not talking about varnish recipes, but the selection of colors and characteristic brush strokes, ...I will not mention the construction.

As a matter of fact, I begin to think that modern Chinese copies re closest to the originals. (this is a little joke)

Are you able to spot the biggest errors (or regularity) of this copy by looking at the photos? (it's for educational purposes).

Edited July 3, 2022 by Renegade

[jacobsaunders]

43 minutes ago, Renegade said:

1. I am Junior Members so I have a limited number of daily posts.

2. Relatively often meet opinions about the lack of any common features linking copies with originals (I'm talking about the ones with pasted labels). This is probably also true of other regions... (Oh my poor Anton Fischer

 

1. After your tenth post you will be a full grown-up and can post as much as you like

2. You should differentiate between instruments that were actual, in the literal sense, “copies” and trade violins that had any old name stuck in willy-nilly

[Renegade Violin]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:06 PM, jacobsaunders said:

1. After your tenth post you will be a full grown-up and can post as much as you like

2. You should differentiate between instruments that were actual, in the literal sense, “copies” and trade violins that had any old name stuck in willy-nilly

I understand perfectly. Label is label, violin is violin.

However, what about a situation where the label 'clearly' says it's a copy. This surprised me, and not the fact that the violin itself differed from the original.

The label says literally: 

Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy & C.
'Copie Nicolaus Amatius Cremoniea Hieroni 1676'

Jérôme overdid it a bit

----

PS: Are you able to spot the biggest errors (or regularity) of this copy by looking at the photos? (it's for educational purposes).

[jacobsaunders]

If a label says "Copie de..." it just means that it isn't one

[Renegade Violin]

The following text is only an attempt to understand (by presenting your own line of reasoning) It is ABSOLUTELY not intended to offend anyone personal I apologize in advance if someone sees it that way.

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I have the impression, maybe wrong, that you, Jakub, as well as many other specialists in "old violin" ...have moved back in time :), it's wonderful.

As if you were living in those times, lived there, you were partakers of that life. Therefore, it seems to me that novices sometimes have a problem with fully understanding the essence of the matter.

It is possible that we are peers, but shaped by completely different worlds.

For the 'ordinary bread eater' (me) ...the word 'Copie' / 'Copy' + the name and surname of the violin maker + the date ...is evidently: ...A copy of the Amati violin that Amati created in 1676.
In other words, the model of the Amati violin from 1676 was used as the 'model' for violins produced by the JTL company.
The date is intended to suggest exactly which model was to be the prototype.
As we already know ...a failed copy is.

This situation is understood by an "ordinary" person.

Either I didn't understand your comment above, or ...

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The times in which this instrument was created are not the Palaeolithic times, but the period of industrialization, which also does not justify - such a practice.
The placement of the labels has only one purpose - to inform the buyer - of what it is dealing with.

I know that in those days such activities were widely used. However, I have the impression that by 'specialists in this field' considered as ... oh nothing happened, it's the norm, everything is OK.

---

Currently, such 'practice' is stigmatized, and probably rightly so.

---

In the extreme sense of this situation, it should be said: The violin makers of that period were great, gifted violin makers. Traders - mostly - scammers.

[matesic]

Particularly in this post-truth era I'm afraid the purpose of labels is frequently not to inform but to deceive.

[Renegade Violin]

15 minutes ago, matesic said:

Particularly in this post-truth era I'm afraid the purpose of labels is frequently not to inform but to deceive.

I am a novice, and what scares me (after reading a dozen articles), is the scale of the phenomenon. At this scale, Watergate, it's a joke

[RolandS]

Hello Renegade,

 

Consider what it means to copy an old violin of the baroque period:

To follow the top-view contour of the box

To follow the cross-section curvature and thickness of the blades

To select same wood species, sawing method and growth rings 

Same for scroll and neck

To imitate scroll graft yes or no (debatable) 

To use exact varnish receipe and procedure 

Etc ..... 

 

Or:

Just one or a few of the above. 

 

For a maker or trader, the entire concept of 'copy' is very broad, in terms of the technicalities of copying and also in terms of the objective. (e.g. to study the results of applying various parameters, to apply trade method) 

 

My conjecture is that if a large production house labels one of their models a copy, it concerns the front-view contour only. Is this scam? Probably not. Or if it is just phantasy of the trader, then it is scam

 

[Renegade Violin]

1 hour ago, RolandS said:

Hello Renegade,

 

Consider what it means to copy an old violin of the baroque period:

To follow the top-view contour of the box

To follow the cross-section curvature and thickness of the blades

To select same wood species, sawing method and growth rings 

Same for scroll and neck

To imitate scroll graft yes or no (debatable) 

To use exact varnish receipe and procedure 

Etc ..... 

 

Or:

Just one or a few of the above. 

 

For a maker or trader, the entire concept of 'copy' is very broad, in terms of the technicalities of copying and also in terms of the objective. (e.g. to study the results of applying various parameters, to apply trade method) 

 

My conjecture is that if a large production house labels one of their models a copy, it concerns the front-view contour only. Is this scam? Probably not. Or if it is just phantasy of the trader, then it is scam

 

You hit the nail on the head...

Forgive my 'intellectual inclinations', but being a layman, I cannot yet articulate the questions that bother me.
As for JTL, it's OK anyway, at least it says it's 'Copie de ...' The problem (for me) begins only when even the outer contour, efas, top and back heaves have nothing to do with the 'original'.

Note: will be my intellectual drive

There are further challenges ... e.g. copies of Stainer, whose early and older works were very different (as I read somewhere ... and how then to compare the copy to the original (which).n.

[Blank face]

I'm wondering if you are somehow related to a defunct member named DuffersEdge who liked to act as a sort of Sherlock Holmes.

One can look at it from a million different point of views, but it's simply a matter of fact that historically violins were labelled deliberately with misrepresentations since early on, even in old Cremona. Mittenwald 18th were labelled as Stainer or Amati, French accordingly, Guadagnini and others claimed falsely to be Strad pupils on their labels etc etc.

It's common knowledge that late 19th/early 20th century trade violins were labelled without any regard to the actual models, and to complain about it or start a sort of criminalistic research is a Don Quixote game.

I guess we could start another 20 page thread, too, about everybody's detailed opinion what qualifies a "real copy of something" with all grades and shades.

[sospiri]

The words "copie de" are there to inform the buyer that it's not a real Amati, or Stainer or Stradivari etcetera.

No need to examine the the label with any great intellectual curiosity.

[Renegade Violin]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

I'm wondering if you are somehow related to a defunct member named DuffersEdge who liked to act as a sort of Sherlock Holmes.

One can look at it from a million different point of views, but it's simply a matter of fact that historically violins were labelled deliberately with misrepresentations since early on, even in old Cremona. Mittenwald 18th were labelled as Stainer or Amati, French accordingly, Guadagnini and others claimed falsely to be Strad pupils on their labels etc etc.

It's common knowledge that late 19th/early 20th century trade violins were labelled without any regard to the actual models, and to complain about it or start a sort of criminalistic research is a Don Quixote game.

I guess we could start another 20 page thread, too, about everybody's detailed opinion what qualifies a "real copy of something" with all grades and shades.

And this is the answer I expected...
Compact, clear and firm.
Thank you very much. ...The 'drawers' in my head returned to their proper places

[Renegade Violin]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

The words "copie de" are there to inform the buyer that it's not a real Amati, or Stainer or Stradivari etcetera.

No need to examine the the label with any great intellectual curiosity.

In those days, they should have labels: 'Copie de ... nothing specific'

[sospiri]

4 minutes ago, Renegade said:

In those days, they should have labels: 'Copie de ... nothing specific'

It wouldn't sell. 

If it's any consolation, your violin is much closer to a copy of a golden period Strad, which was and still is the easiest way to sell violins. 

[Renegade Violin]

5 minutes ago, sospiri said:

It wouldn't sell. 

If it's any consolation, your violin is much closer to a copy of a golden period Strad, which was and still is the easiest way to sell violins. 

You're kidding... really?

PS: Can you give us some basic elements that indicate this?

[pyrola_asarifolia]

22 hours ago, Renegade said:

The label says literally: 

Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy & C.
'Copie Nicolaus Amatius Cremoniea Hieroni 1676'

 

The label in my 2020 Romanian, worked-over, cello says "copy of Goffriller" - but it is not. This is part of the convention about these labels. Look at the label sheets from all over 19th century central Europe. It's copy-of-cut-and-paste. 

It's like with mathematical theorems, which are almost never first proven by the mathematician after which they are named. (JOKE. With mathematical theorems usually there's a bit more substance to the link between name and creative output.) 

[sospiri]

Just now, Renegade said:

You're kidding... really?

PS: Can you give us some basic elements that indicate this?

It's red. It's got black lining. It's probably made using something similar to the famous PG mold that he used, but in outline only because yours was made using an outside mold and Stradivari always used an inside mold.

[Renegade Violin]

8 minutes ago, sospiri said:

It's red. It's got black lining. It's probably made using something similar to the famous PG mold that he used, but in outline only because yours was made using an outside mold and Stradivari always used an inside mold.

 

10 minutes ago, pyrola_asarifolia said:

The label in my 2020 Romanian, worked-over, cello says "copy of Goffriller" - but it is not. This is part of the convention about these labels. Look at the label sheets from all over 19th century central Europe. It's copy-of-cut-and-paste. 

It's like with mathematical theorems, which are almost never first proven by the mathematician after which they are named. (JOKE. With mathematical theorems usually there's a bit more substance to the link between name and creative output.) 

Thanks a lot to both colleagues

What paint was used on my JTL? ... looking at the chipped back it looks like hard spirit (?)

There is a topic somewhere on the Forum explaining the use of internal / external forms. and the recognition method explained?

[sospiri]

4 minutes ago, Renegade said:

 

Thanks a lot to both colleagues

What paint was used on my JTL? ... looking at the chipped back it looks like hard spirit (?)

Shellac, most likely.

[Renegade Violin]

6 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Shellac, most likely.

That's what I meant, and okay, I'll fix it myself ...and boast.

[sospiri]

17 minutes ago, Renegade said:

That's what I meant, and okay, I'll fix it myself ...and boast.

I think you should practise on something cheaper. I like your violin as it is.

[Renegade Violin]

2 hours ago, sospiri said:

I think you should practise on something cheaper. I like your violin as it is.

OK, we'll think ...