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Thoughts on provenance?


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My opinion on provenance is that it's grossly overrated compared to sound.  :D

IMHO, the provenance of the violin that you posted photos of is most probably neither "the usual" Saxon, nor a typical Mirecourt, trade fiddle (someone will likely disagree, of course, and neither the front nor the back of the head is shown), but I'm not sure at all beyond that point.

What is the seller claiming it is?  It's easier to rule things out. :)

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Oxford Dictionary:

prov·e·nance
/ˈprävənəns/
 
noun
  1. the place of origin or earliest known history of something.
    "an orange rug of Iranian provenance"
     
    2. a record of ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.
     
    Well...with violins we generally try to ID the instrument (#1) - which is rather separate from provenance - which is more of #2...a record of the instrument's history.
     
    IMO, your violin is "the usual" as far as ID goes....and you don't have a record of its history (do you?). And even if you did, unless it was owned/played by some Big Names, or was involved in some historical event - there is no added value.
     
    Doesn't lessen its playability either way.
     
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3 hours ago, Rue said:
  1. ...............IMO, your violin is "the usual" as far as ID goes....

See above.  :P :lol:

IMHO, it looks somewhat older than the international heyday of catalog trade instruments, and doesn't tick all the boxes, so I'm not so fast to pigeonhole it.   I'm hoping that we'll have more opinions posted, maybe more photos, an answer to my question from the OP, and maybe even a link.  :)

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5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

My opinion on provenance is that it's grossly overrated compared to sound.  :D

 

In the context of an ID thread, your arbitrary deliria re. “Sound” are both irrelevant and uncalled for.

The violin is presumably one of those more expensive ones from the Markneukirchen trade that were referred to as “Copies” although they weren’t actually a copy of anything, and were dealt individually as opposed to in dozens.

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I would also think that the "graft" is just scratched in and that most of wear and tear is artificially antiquing. So the date of making would be around 1900 I'm supposing.

These are thoughts of origin, but for "provenance" we can't tell anything without a continuous documentation of ownership.:huh:

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6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

In the context of an ID thread, your arbitrary deliria re. “Sound” are both irrelevant and uncalled for.

The violin is presumably one of those more expensive ones from the Markneukirchen trade that were referred to as “Copies” although they weren’t actually a copy of anything, and were dealt individually as opposed to in dozens.

Show me where the OP explicitly asked us to identify anything.  They asked us for our opinions on provenance, so I gave them mine, for both definitions.  ;)  :lol:

If you say it's a Markie, that's good enough for me.  :)

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On 6/26/2022 at 7:44 PM, Blank face said:

I would also think that the "graft" is just scratched in and that most of wear and tear is artificially antiquing. So the date of making would be around 1900 I'm supposing.

These are thoughts of origin, but for "provenance" we can't tell anything without a continuous documentation of ownership.:huh:

The graft is real and it clearly hasnt been 'antiqued'. IMO Viennese school, late 18th c.

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9 minutes ago, P J Lester said:

The graft is real and it clearly hasnt been 'antiqued'. IMO Viennese school, late 18th c.

Get a dendro done and then you might get some additional information to help you.

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It's relatively easy to seperate old Viennese from Markneukirchen using the Mnk vs Mittenwald/Austrian checklist.https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325798-quiz-for-addie/

What I'm seeing at the photos are grain lines and medullary rays crossing the "graft", also a crude attempt to fake bushings. Never saw the "wear" like here at the lower rib other than as artificially applied, but who knows what's existing between heaven and earth.

 

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28 minutes ago, P J Lester said:

The graft is real and it clearly hasnt been 'antiqued'. IMO Viennese school, late 18th c.

If the ebay seller had suggested it was something other than a Thir, would you still be of the same opionion?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165543025266

Personally, I would be very interested to know how you are finding the violins you are posting about: Assuming you are not the seller (an awful lot of the instruments hail from the same seller...) would you mind sharing what search terms have lead you to this motley selection of orange instruments?

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12 minutes ago, notsodeepblue said:

If the ebay seller had suggested it was something other than a Thir, would you still be of the same opionion?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165543025266

Not a Thir, and the Ebay photos in higher resolution give clear evidence that it's a crudely manipulated artifact of undefinite origin.

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